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As with many of you, I've been following Peter Scholze's recent question about universes with great interest. In ring theory, we don't often have to deal with proper classes, but they occasionally pop their heads. For instance, one cannot take the product of all countable rings---but one can replace that proper class with the set of isomorphism types of countable rings and get something that encodes a lot of the important information that would have existed in the proper class product (if it existed). I've similarly viewed the axiom of universes as an elegent way to avoid Russell's paradox when wanting to talk about something "close" to the proper class of all rings, groups, sets, etc.; the discussion at Peter Scholze's question has been very enlightening in that regard.

This brings to mind a related question I've been struggling with for quite a while. I view ZFC as a formalization of those mathematical techniques that I take for granted when working with collections. As I've delved deeper into first order logic, and formal languages, the importance (in my mind) of metamathematical assumptions has increased. One of the questions that I'm told was historically important was whether or not there was a "completed" infinity, or in other words whether or not the natural numbers actually form a completed whole collection.

I'd say that modern mathematics comes down strongly on the side of a completed infinity. In particular, I've understood that the axiom of infinity in ZFC is supposed to reflect a similar metamathematical assumption. One does not think of the axiom of infinity merely as a formal rule, interpretable in a finitistic sense (even if, technically, it could be). On a more concrete level, I'd guess most mathematicians think of questions about the infinite behavior of Turing machines as actually having answers (metamathematically and/or Platonically).

(This is not to dismiss those who prefer to think of the natural numbers as an uncompleted collection. These issues definitely raise interesting philosophical question as well as mathematical questions, such as how much these metamathematical assumptions affect standard mathematics.)

So, my first question is whether or not, metamathematically speaking, we should take $V$ (the proper class of all sets) as a completed whole or not. If that is too philosophical, the second is much more mathematical: Does this matter for formalizing mathematics? If not, does taking $\mathbb{N}$ as a completed whole matter for formalizing/doing mathematics, or can we easily do without that assumption?

If we believe $\mathbb{N}$ exists as a completed whole, and work by analogy, then the answer to the first question seems to be obviously yes. But if we take Russell's paradox at face value, then the answer seems to be obviously no.

Moreover, the different standard options available to formalize mathematics seems to leave this question open-ended:

  1. A ZFC-formalist might say no, there is no meta-$V$ because there are not even any formal proper classes, they are just an elegant informal way to talk about uncompleted infinities.

  2. An NBG-formalist might say yes, and our meta-$V$ is only somewhat like sets.

  3. An MK-formalist might say yes, and our meta-$V$ is really nearly a set.

  4. A believer in ZFC+Universes, might say yes or no. Yes, if we think of our meta-$V$ varying as we change our universe of expression, but maybe no if we want it to have all the properties of being the full (meta-)universe (on pain of Russell's paradox).

The reason I'm asking this question is that I would guess most mathematicians would say something like "No, it doesn't matter whether or not we take $V$ as meta-mathematically existing." But I'd guess those same mathematicians would say that it does matter that we take $\mathbb{N}$ as meta-mathematically existing, else we can't even begin to formalize how to construct a (completed) language, etc.

Pace Nielsen
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  • "They occasionally pop their heads" is both totally comprehensible and very disturbing as an idiom. – LSpice Feb 03 '21 at 22:49
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    @LSpice Perhaps I should have said "pop up". Less "popping" that way. – Pace Nielsen Feb 03 '21 at 22:51
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    Why do you say that the product of all equivalence classes of countable rings (coded as reals) “would have been” isomorphic to the product of all countable rings? Do you not consider products where one term is repeated many times? – Monroe Eskew Feb 03 '21 at 23:10
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    I think "isomorphic to" is not intended. It's just that if you ever find yourself needing such a product, it's probably because you're trying to embed something into it or something like that, and for those purposes it suffices to use the skeleton. – Tim Campion Feb 03 '21 at 23:27
  • What should I believe if I'm a mathematical nihilist that believe that all that "believing" stuff cannot be properly justified, mathematically speaking, and that at the end of the day all the approaches have their pros and cons, none is perfect, and that ultimately you should be a utilitarian and choose whichever approach helps you present the clearest argument in a given context? – Asaf Karagila Feb 04 '21 at 00:05
  • I think that Joel's multiverse view is probably relevant to this question and your interests, although I can't see exactly how (besides the obvious) right now. – Alec Rhea Feb 04 '21 at 00:13
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    If we're comparing the completedness of $\mathbb N$ and $V$, why not throw $\mathbb R$ into the mix? I find the question in this case particularly interesting because when $\mathbb R$ is used to model phenomena in the real world, the use of $\mathbb R$ for such modeling is often naively justified in terms of some kind of map taking each distinct real number to a distinct real-world object, but when one steps back it seems very strange to assert that the corresponding real-world objects are actually uncountable in number. – Tim Campion Feb 04 '21 at 00:56
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    To me, the idea of ordinals being a completed infinity contradicts the idea of ordinals (I mean the informal idea of ordinals, that is, that after every "completed collection" of ordinals there should be another ordinal). – Akiva Weinberger Feb 04 '21 at 02:05
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    Just a comment to ask a clarification about terminology. I think there are two senses in which the expression "metamathematical question" is used, namely: 1) a non-formalized philosophical question concerning mathematics; and 2) a question in a specific formalized metatheory [in particular, "metamathematical" in sense 2) is a particular case of "mathematical"] E.g. Goedel's incompleteness theorems are (mathematical theorems which are) metamathematical in the sense 2). Do I understand it correctly that you are using "metamathematical" in the sense 1) i.e. as a synonym with "philosophical" etc? – Qfwfq Feb 04 '21 at 02:53
  • No it is not a completed whole yet! Nice question and lots of nice answers. It is a completed whole in any universe from the perspective of any universe, or anywhere you want to study it from. But any universe is not yet really complete because the Multiverse is alive. –  Feb 04 '21 at 03:28
  • @AkivaWeinberger After considering all the comments and answers, I think your comment is actually the best answer to the question as I stated it. There is no meta-V because there cannot be a finished Ord (assuming V satisfies separation). If you want to make your comment into an answer, I'll accept it. – Pace Nielsen Feb 12 '21 at 21:38
  • @PaceNielsen Easy enough – Akiva Weinberger Feb 12 '21 at 21:42

6 Answers6

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So, my first question is whether or not, metamathematically speaking, we should take $V$ (the proper class of all sets) as a completed whole or not.

This is something that philosophers of mathematics—along with some mathematicians—have thought about. The basic point is, like the old Aristotelian distinction between the potential infinite versus the actual infinite, as one might apply to e.g. the integers, one can distinguish between a potentialist view of $V$ versus an actualist view of $V$. And one can argue for one position as having merits over the other.

Let me point to a couple refernces which go into more detail. For a philosophical treatment, Øystein Linnebo's "The potential hierarchy of sets" is a nice paper on the subject, arguing for a potentialist view on $V$. For a treatment of some of the mathematical issues which arise from this potentialist perspective, "The modal logic of set-theoretic potentialism and the potentialist maximality principles" by Joel David Hamkins and Linnebo is a good overview.

If that is too philosophical, the second is much more mathematical: Does this matter for formalizing mathematics?

The answer here depends on the specifics of your potentialist commitments.

To explain, let me introduce some concepts. A potentialist system is a collection of structures in a fixed language, ordered by a reflexive, transitive relation which extends the substructure relation. If we're interested in doing this for set theory, this means we want structures equipped with a membership relation. This is supposed to formalize a domain which is unfixed and growing; something may not exist in the current universe, but we can potentially expand to a larger one and find the desired object.

There's a natural interpretation of modal logic in this context. Namely, $\varphi$ is possible, $\diamondsuit \varphi$, at a universe if it is true in some extension, and $\varphi$ is necessary, $\square \varphi$, at a universe if it is true in all extensions. You can then ask what modal assertions are valid for a potentialist system, and this tells you something about the structure of the potentialist system. The above-linked paper by Hamkins and Linnebo calculates the modal validities for a variety of set-theoretic potentialist systems, and has further details/definitions.

To now explain the "it depends": Linnebo and Stewart Shapiro have a mirroring theorem which applies in certain cases; see theorem 5.4 of the Linnebo paper linked above. In short, it says that if your modal system satisfies the modal axioms S4.2, then any proofs in the modal realm correspond to proofs in a classical realm, and vice versa. (See the Hamkins–Linnebo paper for a definition of S4.2; the way I like to think about it is that expresses directedness in your potentialist system.) It's a general result, so let me illustrate with an example.

You can consider $\mathbb N$ as a completed infinited whole, but you can also approach it via this potentialist framework. Namely, you can consider the potentialist system whose worlds are $\{0,1,\ldots, k\}$ for all $k \in \mathbb N$, equipped with the appropriate restrictions of the arithmetic operations. Then, a statement $\varphi$ of number theory is true in $\mathbb N$ if and only if the modal statement $\varphi^\diamondsuit$ is true in this potentialist system. Here, $\varphi^\diamondsuit$ is the modal statement you get by replacing every $\forall$ with $\square \forall$ and every $\exists$ with $\diamondsuit \exists$. The point is, in a universe in the potentialist system you may not yet have a witness to an existential statement, but you can find one by extending to a large enough universe.

So if your potentialist take on $V$ includes S4.2, then there's an equivalent system that takes $V$ as a completed whole, so there's in the end no difference for formalizing mathematics. Maybe one system might be easier to work with than another, but you can translate results from one to another.

On the other hand, there are set-theoretic potentialist systems which don't validate S4.2, and as you extend you make permanent choices as to what is true. (For examples, see Hamkins and Hugh Woodin's "The universal finite set" and Hamkins and my "The $\Sigma_1$-definable universal finite sequence". Both of these are variants on Woodin's universal algorithm for models of arithmetic, and if you're interested in understanding them the arithmetic case is a nicer starting point. Hamkins has a nice paper about the arithmetic case.)

So if your potentialist take on $V$ is more in line with these, then it would make a difference for formalizing mathematics, since it expresses something that cannot be captured with a single universe.

To express a bit of a personal opinion: I think an S4.2 set-up is probably more plausible than the situations in the Hamkins–Woodin or Hamkins–Williams papers. In particular, both of those require nonstandard models to work, and many—most?—mathematicians are predisposed to the view that nonstandard models aren't plausible candidates for being the 'true' universe of mathematics.

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    Kameryn, thank you for this detailed answer! I hope to have more to say after I digest those sources. – Pace Nielsen Feb 04 '21 at 19:37
  • The original paper by Linnebo takes the idea of a potentialist view very seriously, and has lots of good references. I find it interesting that in the follow-up paper with Hamkins, the potentialist system is modelled in a completed $\mathcal{L}$-system. This suggests that one benefit of taking the completionist view is it gives us modelling tools not available otherwise. – Pace Nielsen Feb 09 '21 at 18:36
  • A very fine answer, Kameryn. – Joel David Hamkins Feb 15 '21 at 18:44
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(taken from a comment)

To me, the idea of ordinals being a completed infinity contradicts the idea of ordinals (I mean the informal idea of ordinals, that is, that after every "completed collection" of ordinals there should be another ordinal).

  • I should add that both Kameryn Williams and Timothy Chow are experts in this area and I am definitely not. – Akiva Weinberger Feb 12 '21 at 21:41
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    Their answers are excellent, and provide some important resources. However, pointing out that Ord (if it existed as a completed object) would contradict itself cuts right to the heart of the philosophical issues. – Pace Nielsen Feb 12 '21 at 22:19
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    The main idea underlying this answer is known as the Burali-Forti paradox. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burali-Forti_paradox – Joel David Hamkins Feb 15 '21 at 17:44
  • @JoelDavidHamkins Thank you for the link. The New Foundations solution breaks my brain a little - it seems its ordinals violate my intuitive desires for what ordinals "should be". – Akiva Weinberger Feb 15 '21 at 18:09
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    The theory of New Foundations does not seem to arise from any prereflective coherent vision of set theory; rather, this is a theory arising from a purely syntactic move attempting to avoid the Russell contradiction. There seems little reason to expect it to have any robust set-theoretic interpretation. – Joel David Hamkins Feb 15 '21 at 18:29
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  • @AkivaWeinberger Despite that $\bf Ord$ is a proper class, you still can have well-ordered definable class relations that can be thought of as “pseudo-ordinals” that are longer than $\bf Ord$, and it’s an interesting question to ask how far they can extend. There is some analogy between them and recursive countable ordinals. See https://mathoverflow.net/q/116590/9550, https://math.stackexchange.com/q/3470982/19661, https://math.stackexchange.com/q/4072813/19661 – Vladimir Reshetnikov Apr 13 '21 at 05:12
  • @PaceNielsen: I don't think this post actually provides an answer, because the very term "ordinal" seems to be ill-defined from a pure meta-logical viewpoint. Just try to define it, and you will see that you cannot without invoking some (almost surely ZFC-based) notions of sets. Worse still, predicativists, not to say formalists, would likely stop around ATR0, but ATR0 is consistent with "there is no uncomputable well-ordering", so on what meta-logical grounds can you justify going further? – user21820 Jan 14 '22 at 15:35
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Let me offer a different perspective, informed by my recent conversion from ZFC to ETCSR, i.e. Lawvere's elementary theory of the category of sets (with replacement). Recall that the two theories are "equivalent" in that each interprets the other, and models naturally correspond; the difference between them is essentially linguistic. In ETCSR, one formalizes the category of all sets. So there is a (meta?)mathematical category of all sets $\mathrm{Set}$. I'd like to make the following analogy:

Mathematics probably starts by counting, leading to the integers $0,1,2,\ldots$. This quickly leads one to wonder how far this goes -- is there a "largest integer"? Of course, that's an obviously self-contradictory concept.

Then there was a conceptual leap in mathematics, from mere numbers to the concept of sets. We allowed ourselves to contemplate taking all the integers, forming a new kind of object, a set. Then just like Peano arithmetic formalizes the integers on some inductive idea of the formation of integers, we formalize sets in ZFC based on some inductive idea of the formation of sets. In particular, we can form larger and larger sets. But just like for the integers, it turns out that the idea of "largest set" is self-contradictory.

In the ETCSR point of view, what we do now is to make another conceptual leap in mathematics, from sets to categories. In this conception, we allow ourselves to contemplate the category of all sets, and then also "completed" categories of groups, of rings, etc. So somehow just like for the integers, the correct question was now that of "a largest integer larger than all the others", but that of collecting all the integers into a new kind of object -- a set -- the correct question here is not that of "a largest set containing all the other sets", but that of collecting all the sets in to a new kind of object -- a category.

I realize that the last 'correct' is up for debate, and that this perspective puts me on a (slippery?) slope that would ultimately want to formalize the category of all categories, ..., leading one to $\infty$-categories and homotopy type theory. Maybe that's the way to go, but for now I'd only take one step at a time.

Peter Scholze
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  • And then $(\infty,n), (\infty, n+1), \ldots$.. and then again we run out of integer. What next? – Student Mar 24 '21 at 11:55
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    Let's leave that problem to our grand-grand-grand-children ;-). – Peter Scholze Mar 24 '21 at 12:31
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    More seriously, I'm not sure we're yet able to fully predict where this path would lead; rather, the idea seems to me that each new step requires a new conceptual leap, informed by actual mathematical problems (just like Cantor started to think seriously about sets because of work on Fourier series), with merely saying "(higher) category of all previous things" not actually being such a conceptual leap. – Peter Scholze Mar 24 '21 at 12:40
  • Is there a variant of ETCSR which is equivalent to ZF plus DC only? – Abdelmalek Abdesselam Mar 24 '21 at 14:09
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    The expert is Mike Shulman, maybe he can answer. For now let me refer to his paper Comparing material and structural set theories that discusses many cases of this dictionary (but I believe not the one you ask about). – Peter Scholze Mar 24 '21 at 14:22
  • In this argument, we could replace ETCSR with any other theory that is sufficiently similar to ZFC, such as NBG. Thus, your argument just looks like a reframing of the usual argument using "(proper) classes" and "hyper-classes" and so forth, but instead replacing them with (higher) categories. If I were to play devil's advocate, I'd say that the conceptual leap wasn't from numbers to set, but from numbers to "collections"; and sets, classes, and categories are all (slightly different) forms of collections. – Pace Nielsen Mar 24 '21 at 16:50
  • @PaceNielsen In a sense, you are absolutely right; this was the perspective I was taking when I wrote the referenced question. But I actually find the ETCSR perspective more compelling; it reflects very closely how I "want" to think about it; and I maintain that there's a conceptual leap in that case, a category is a different beast than a collection. But the analogy to PA is not perfect: Under this analogy, it seems that so far we've replaced PA by the set theory of finite sets (ZFC - Infinity, which is "equivalent" to PA). – Peter Scholze Mar 24 '21 at 19:36
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    So this would suggest to axiomatize the $2$-category of categories; this ought to contain the "standard category of sets" just like sets contain the "standard natural numbers". I am sure that there is work in this direction; can anybody point me to relevant literature? – Peter Scholze Mar 24 '21 at 19:37
  • I'd be very interested in your perspective of how categories are different beasts than collections. The way they've been presented to me has been as two-sorted collections, with one sort being the objects and the other sort being the arrows (satisfying certain axioms). – Pace Nielsen Mar 24 '21 at 20:16
  • Numbers can be equal. Sets can be isomorphic. Categories can be equivalent. In particular, the "set of objects of a category" isn't even a well-defined thing, as it's not invariant under equivalence; a good formalization shouldn't even allow you to talk about it. – Peter Scholze Mar 24 '21 at 20:19
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    So even if there is a category of all sets, this doesn't mean that there's a set/collection/class of all sets! – Peter Scholze Mar 24 '21 at 20:19
  • @PaceNielsen You can take the "collection of objects" of a category to be so primitive so as not to even have an equality predicate (this idea is due to Bénabou, in his only JSL paper). This changes nothing about category theory, but then you have to be a little more careful as treating objects as giving typing information about morphisms (so you aren't really using equality when talking about composability of morphisms). Then the objects do not form a class in any sense of the word. See also Makkai's FOLDS. – David Roberts Mar 25 '21 at 22:00
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    @AbdelmalekAbdesselam take a well-pointed boolean autological topos with NNO satisfying: let $X$ be a non-empty set and $R\subset X\times X$ a total relation, then for all $x\in X$ there is a function $f\colon \mathbb{N}\to X$ such that $f(0)=x$, and $(f(n),f(n+1))\in X^2$ is really in $R$. There's a small amount of gloss needed here, if one wants to speak strictly in terms of ETCS, but this should be what you want. DC is a very "structural" axiom, in this form. – David Roberts Mar 25 '21 at 22:40
  • @theHigherGeometer I'm currently leaning towards the formalist ZFC+Universes position, where there is no category of (all) sets, just partial approximations. Are there many category theorists who take that position seriously, or do they usually just assume there really is a completed category of all of set theory? – Pace Nielsen Mar 25 '21 at 23:30
  • @PaceNielsen "that" position being the "there is no equality on objects" position? I couldn't say for sure. Certainly there are some. Unless you mean "there is a true category of all sets", in which case, that's a bit trickier. People who are sensitive to this are also the sort of people who want to work relative to an arbitrary topos, so really a much more pluralist standpoint! – David Roberts Mar 26 '21 at 03:04
  • @theHigherGeometer I meant the "true category of all sets". I asked because in the JSL paper you recommended, it seemed to be a given. – Pace Nielsen Mar 26 '21 at 03:17
  • I'd argue that taking the position that there is a completed category of all sets is the default position in category theory; certainly that's the default position in algebraic geometry/number theory/algebraic topology, I'd say. The whole discussion of the Yoneda lemma (or presentable categories) in fact very much assumes this point of a completed category of all sets. – Peter Scholze Mar 26 '21 at 08:31
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    @PeterScholze I would have thought that Yoneda's lemma poses no problem, because of "equivalences". One would show that there is stability (in terms of natural equivalences on the hom sets) when passing to larger and larger universes. I would definitely expect no problems in algebraic geometry, number theory, or algebraic topology (for the reasons given in the answers to your question). I'd think you would only lose something if you wanted to study all of ZFC+Universes itself using categories (which unnecessarily presupposes a need for categories to be foundational). Am I missing something? – Pace Nielsen Mar 26 '21 at 15:31
  • I just checked, and this seems to be what George Bergman does in his book "An invitation to general algebra and universal constructions." Yoneda's lemma is with respect to a given universe. etc... – Pace Nielsen Mar 26 '21 at 15:42
  • Sorry, my last comment wasn't very spot on. I meant that the intuitive idea of the Yoneda lemma is about embedding into functors into the category of all sets. This works only if your category in the beginning is small, of course, but that is a prerequisite anyways. I find that the idea of Yoneda is obscured if you end up choosing universes of sets and comparing the different universes. But maybe I should stop the discussion; I was just meaning to give a different perspective with this answer, one that I think is close to how I think, but I don't have strong feelings about it. – Peter Scholze Mar 26 '21 at 17:23
  • @PeterScholze I very much appreciate your perspective, and this discussion. Thanks for helping me understand; I only use Yoneda's lemma in a very limited form in my own work. – Pace Nielsen Mar 26 '21 at 18:18
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Kameryn Williams has already given a very good answer, but perhaps it is worth saying explicitly that there is not 100% consensus on the exact meaning of completed infinity (or actual infinity).

Having said that, it is common practice to formalize "$\mathbb N$ is not a completed infinity" with the formal system $\mathsf{ZF} - \mathsf{Inf} + \neg\mathsf{Inf}$ (i.e., $\mathsf{ZF}$ with the axiom of infinity replaced by its negation), which is bi-interpretable with first-order Peano arithmetic $\mathsf{PA}$. With this interpretation, the answer to your question about whether it would make any mathematical difference to deny that $\mathbb{N}$ is a completed infinity is yes. Specifically, we would lose theorems that are provable in $\mathsf{ZF}$ but not provable in $\mathsf{PA}$, such as the Paris–Harrington theorem.

There are alternatives. As Kameryn Williams mentioned, Linnebo and Shapiro have argued for a novel interpretation of "$\mathbb{N}$ is only a potential infinity." Under their interpretation, one does lose some theorems, but not quite the same ones. There was some discussion of this point recently (July 2020) on the Foundations of Mathematics mailing list. EDIT: Further discussion took place in early 2023 following a post by Matthias Eberl, announcing two papers of his on the topic.

As for what it means for $V$ to be a completed whole, there is perhaps even less consensus about what that would mean. As you suggest, one possibility is to introduce a distinction between sets and classes and to assert that $V$ is the class of all sets. You could then point to the conservativity of $\mathsf{NBG}$ over $\mathsf{ZFC}$ as evidence that such an assertion does not prove any new theorems about sets. However, some might argue that the assertion that $V$ is a completed whole amounts to the assertion that $V$ is the set of all sets, and that of course leads to a contradiction in a well-known way. The conclusion is that $V$ is not a completed whole. This is arguably how Cantor thought about the Absolute Infinite.

Timothy Chow
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  • Oooh, thank you for the link to the FoM mailing list. I didn't know that had been discussed there – Kameryn Williams Feb 04 '21 at 18:01
  • (1/2) Timothy, thank you for this precise formalization of "$\mathbb{N}$ is not a completed infinity". The next question would then be: What is the precise formalization of "$\mathbb{N}$ is a completed infinity"? ZF is too powerful for that, so the fact that there are theorems of ZF about the natural numbers that are not provable in PA doesn't quite answer my question. For instance, one might, a priori, blame this on the impredicative nature of the power set axiom rather than the axiom of infinity. Even ZF-Power might be too strong. – Pace Nielsen Feb 04 '21 at 19:35
  • (2/2) However, if I understand things correctly, the usual axiom of infinity (perhaps with separation and other seemingly harmless set axioms) does seem to prove that PA is consistent, which can be turned into an arithmetic statement not provable in PA. So, does a potentialist believe in PA, but not PA+Con(PA)? Maybe so, because perhaps the Turing machine used to check the consistency of PA cannot really be built and run forever. If you have any additional thoughts, they'd be appreciated. – Pace Nielsen Feb 04 '21 at 19:35
  • @PaceNielsen I am not aware of any attempts to capture the "minimal" consequences of "$\mathbb{N}$ is a completed infinity." By the way, Gentzen's proof of the consistency of PA was regarded by Gentzen himself as being "finitary." So that illustrates how fuzzy this question is. – Timothy Chow Feb 05 '21 at 00:21
  • I'm not convinced that PA doesn't regard $\mathbb N$ as a completed infinity. The reason is that the induction schema allows formulas with deep nesting of alternating unbounded quantifiers, so it implicitly treats such formulas as meaningful. I don't see how to think of truth values for big strings of quantifiers without thinking of the totality $\mathbb N$ as complete. (This may be related to Gentzen's regarding his proof as finitary; this proof doesn't require deep alternations of quantifiers.) – Andreas Blass Feb 13 '21 at 00:24
  • @AndreasBlass Interesting viewpoint. Do you think that there is some specific number of alternation of quantifiers that implicitly assumes a completed infinity? Also, if one accepts Gentzen's proof as being correct and finitary, then doesn't that suggest that PA doesn't presuppose a completed infinity? To put it another way, wouldn't it be surprising that we could establish the validity of infinitary reasoning by finitary means? I know that that was Hilbert's original hope, but hasn't experience taught us that that hope was too optimistic? – Timothy Chow Feb 13 '21 at 14:11
  • @TimothyChow As far as I can see, Gentzen's proof is finitary except for the assumption that (the standard notation system for) $\epsilon_0$ is well-ordered. I think Hilbert's view of finitism allowed universally quantified statements (equivalently, quantifier-free formulas interpreted as general laws) but nothing more. A fairly common view nowadays seems to be that primitive recursive arithmetic is a reasonable formalization of the finitistic viewpoint. – Andreas Blass Feb 13 '21 at 15:54
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    @TimothyChow It has also been suggested (though I don't remember by whom) in the context of set theory that we should accept the law of the excluded middle only for formulas in which all quantification is bounded; when unbounded quantifiers are involved only intuitionistic logic would apply because the domain of such quantifiers is open-ended. This may be a good way to express the idea that V is not a completed totality. And an analogous proposal might be used in arithmetic to express that $\mathbb N$ isn't completed. – Andreas Blass Feb 13 '21 at 15:58
  • @AndreasBlass and Timothy: Interestingly, Saul Kripke just posted a preprint at the arXiv, https://arxiv.org/abs/2102.08346, which goes into the Hilbertian view of finiteness. – Pace Nielsen Feb 18 '21 at 19:03
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This may be more in line with Vincent R.B. Blazy's answer, but one thing I would like to add is the principle of inexhaustibility. This principle appears in Maddy's "Believing the Axioms. I", where it is stated as "the universe of sets is too complex to be exhausted by any handful of operations." For example, Maddy mentions it as justification for the axiom "an inaccessible cardinal exists":

... the universe of sets is too complex to be exhausted by any handful of operations, in particular by power set and replacement, the two given by the axioms of Zermel of and Fraenkel. Thus there must be an ordinal number after all the ordinals generated by [second-order] replacement and power set. This is an inaccessible.

However, this is not the case for the story of $\mathbb N$, in which there is a single simple operation exhausting $\mathbb N$. As in this way $\mathbb N$ is much more concretely generated, this may be seen as evidence that $\mathbb N$ is a completed infinite object, while $V$ is not. (I am not sure how to reconcile this with the formalism in Timothy Chow's answer, letting $\mathsf{ZF-Inf}+\lnot\mathsf{Inf}$ correspond to the maxim "$\mathbb N$ is not a completed infinity", because even then $V_\omega$ is exhausted by a handful of operations.)

Edit: Today I heard a relevant point phrased in a much more succinct way: "the intended model of Peano arithmetic $(\mathbb N,<,0,1,+,×)$ is intended to be minimal, while the intended model of set theory $(V,\in)$ is intended to be maximal."

C7X
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I'd like to add a few words on a different level than the ones very well discussed in the question and the answers so far, although perhaps you've already automatically discarded it: under my dual conceptualist/formalist point of view, I'd say that conceptually speaking, okay, the question is complex, and analyzing it may go in various directions as we can see in the other answers. But well, formally speaking, and I'd take metamathematics to be formal first, there are no sets, only terms for them, and no classes, let alone proper ones, only mere (potentially recursive) enumerations of syntactic gadgets or combinations of those... And as there are way too few syntactic witnesses for every conceivable set in the multiverse, there can be no completed V in that sense; that, I guess, is the only one that 'matters for formalizing mathematics', as in your second interrogation (we could fall back on some unary predicate defining the symbol V in some language of sets or classes, but that's not really absolute, since it's dependent on the ambient theory in this language that we definitionally extend this way).

The story for N along those lines differs, since there's a formal numeral for any conceptual natural number, whenever a numeral system is fixed (all being isomorphic); and the (meta)mathematically speaking best one might be the Peano numerals, namely sequences of the symbol $s$ ending with an appended $0$ (as finally, arithmetic boils down to structural properties of such strings). And those might be collected in a grammar recursively enumerating them and only them, say in Backus-Naur Form, as follows:

$$n::=0\mid sn$$

That's the only actual completed whole of actualized natural numbers I'd see, and I think there's no real doubt of its usefulness to formalize mathematics (if only because of recursive definitions of functions, inductive proofs of universal propositions...).

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    Note that the idea that there aren't enough names for sets is less obvious than it may at first appear. – Noah Schweber Mar 09 '21 at 00:28
  • @NoahSchweber Haha yes, I know this paper and indeed, it conceptually seriously and very interestingly challenges the issue! But I meant formally, and in that actual sense, well, this paper "only"* shows set-size pointwise definable graphs in extensions of ZFC, and almost every other individual of them remains undefinable, let alone term definable... (*not to dismiss this wonderful work at all, of course; this "only" is just with respect to the precise aspect I was discussing) – Vincent R.B. Blazy Mar 09 '21 at 09:01