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Recently, I learnt in my analysis class the proof of the uncountability of the reals via the Nested Interval Theorem (Wayback Machine). At first, I was excited to see a variant proof (as it did not use the diagonal argument explicitly). However, as time passed, I began to see that the proof was just the old one veiled under new terminology. So, till now I believe that any proof of the uncountability of the reals must use Cantor's diagonal argument.

Is my belief justified?

Thank you.

Unknown
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    It's not too hard to see that the reals have the same cardinality as the power set of the naturals. So we are reduced to showing that a set cannot have the same cardinality as its power set. This is shown using the same argument as the Russell Paradox (i.e., assume a bijection $\phi \colon \mathcal{P}(X) \to X$ exists, and take the set $T$ of all $x \in X$ such that $x \not\in \phi^{-1}(x)$. Then ask whether $\phi(T) \in T$.) I don't think this is the same as the diagonal argument, although I can imagine that someone sufficiently determined might be able to argue otherwise. – Charles Staats Nov 22 '10 at 17:39
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    No. Cantor's first proof of uncountability actually does not use the diagonal argument. Instead, he first proves the countability of algebraic numbers and then states uncountability as a corollary. See

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantor%27s_first_uncountability_proof

    – Francesco Polizzi Nov 22 '10 at 17:40
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    @Charles: Yanofsky, "A Universal Approach to Self-Referential Paradoxes, Incompleteness and Fixed Points" (http://www.math.ucla.edu/~asl/bsl/0903/0903-004.ps). – Martin Brandenburg Nov 22 '10 at 17:45
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    Why the votes to close? I think that this is an interesting question. For what it's worth I cast a vote to keep open which should be taken into account by the next person wishing to vote to close. If you wish to do so, then please let's take this to meta, where I have started this thread: http://tea.mathoverflow.net/discussion/789/proofs-of-the-uncountability-of-the-reals/ – José Figueroa-O'Farrill Nov 22 '10 at 17:46
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    @Francesco: no, the uncountability isn’t a corollary of the countability of the algebraics! Cantor’s original uncountability argument is what the OP refers to as the Nested Interval Theorem. The corollary Cantor then draws from this, together with countability of the algebraics, is the existence of transcendentals (lots of ’em) within any interval. – Peter LeFanu Lumsdaine Nov 22 '10 at 17:59
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    This question seems related: http://mathoverflow.net/questions/23953/earliest-diagonal-proof-of-the-uncountability-of-the-reals – Harald Hanche-Olsen Nov 22 '10 at 18:04
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    The nested interval method and the diagonal method are fundamentally the same method, as is the Russell paradox method. These are all the diagonal method. – Joel David Hamkins Nov 22 '10 at 18:06
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    @Charles: I don’t want to seem particularly determined, but isn’t ${x\ |\ \varphi^{-1}(x) \notin x}$ exactly the diagonal argument? It’s always referred to as such by logicians (see e.g. http://www.tac.mta.ca/tac/reprints/articles/15/tr15abs.html or most Set Theory texts), and given as an example of such by Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantor%27s_diagonal_argument#General_sets. – Peter LeFanu Lumsdaine Nov 22 '10 at 18:14
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    @Peter. You are right, thank you. At first glance, it seemed to me quite a different proof. But reading it more carefully, I'm now convinced that the core of the argument is again the diagonal method... – Francesco Polizzi Nov 22 '10 at 18:19
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    I also cast a vote against closing. The question is: "Is there a different proof of this theorem?" which, to me, sounds very interesting and a natural question that a mathematically mature but non-expert-in-set-theory person might ask. I've asked several questions that have exposed my lamentable ignorance of the subtleties of mathematical foundations and, so far, all have received very interesting and informative answers. This one feels as though it is in the same vein as those. – Andrew Stacey Nov 22 '10 at 18:20
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    @J.F.O'Farrill and Andrew. Yes!Yes!Yes! You said it. – Unknown Nov 22 '10 at 18:24
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    The second paragraph pp.364 of the paper linked above by Martin gives me a new light with respect to paradoxes: "...there really are no paradoxes. There are limitations." – Unknown Nov 22 '10 at 18:33
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    This seems like a real nice question, only I'd say it fits better on http://math.stackexchage.com and not here. – Asaf Karagila Nov 22 '10 at 20:22
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    I voted to close because it seems to me that the above debate shows precisely what's wrong with the question: whether or not an argument "is a diagonal argument" seems to be open to interpretation. – Kevin Buzzard Nov 22 '10 at 21:49
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    I also vote against closing. It's an interesting question. A nice proof based on the property that each bounded subset of the reals has a surpremum can be found in this article. – Ralph Nov 22 '10 at 22:17
  • I correct the link just ahead: http://arxiv.org/abs/0901.0446 – Ralph Nov 22 '10 at 22:23
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    @Kevin-Buzzard, I disagree with your contention that: whether or not an argument "is a diagonal argument" seems to be open to interpretation. It is not simply a matter of interpretation if the underlying argument is diagonalization; it's a matter of the structure of the proof. I would like to cast a "virtual vote" to reopn this question, and I believe that this question had enough merit and substance to it that it ought not to have been closed in the first place. Also, a virtual thumbs to Elohemabab Solomon up for asking this question, and a smiley face too :) ... – sleepless in beantown Nov 22 '10 at 22:27
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    Kevin, I think that there is much less disagreement about whether an argument is a diagonalization than your comment suggests. Most logicians view all the various forms of diagonalization that have been mentioned as fundamentally similar. Meanwhile, my view is that if there were a fundamentally different method of proving Cantor's theorem, this would be important news. So I voted to re-open. – Joel David Hamkins Nov 22 '10 at 23:36
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    Ralph - my understanding of the "verbally vote to keep open" system is that only people who already have the ability to vote to close or reopen may do so (though of course everyone is welcome to voice their approval or disapproval of a question in the comments). Just wanted to point out that it may confuse people who wanted to vote to close but saw your comment and decided not to (it doesn't appear to have; no one has posted that they have canceled your vote to keep open). – Zev Chonoles Nov 22 '10 at 23:59
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    I voted to re-open. It looks to me that the question of whether Cantor's theorem essentially needs diagonalization is both subtle and interesting. I believe it is possible to avoid a diagonal argument, and I am including a proof which hopefully does not hide one somewhere. (Please let me know if you spot a mistake.) – Andrés E. Caicedo Nov 23 '10 at 00:05
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    In the thread on common false beliefs in mathematics, wasn't one of those false beliefs the proposition that the diagonal argument was how Cantor first proved uncountability? If not, maybe it should have been. Cantor's first uncountability proof was published some time before he published the diagonal argument. – Michael Hardy Nov 23 '10 at 00:49
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    @Joel: I still do not buy it. You are a logician, right? Are you claiming that this is a formal mathematical question? If so, then go ahead and formalise the notion of "this proof uses a diagonalization". If you don't think this can be done, then where is the question? I don't really see one. I think that if you look at the answers given thus far, they are perhaps interesting, but none of them remotely deals with this point, so they are at the end of the day "opinion", which is exactly what I am voting against. – Kevin Buzzard Nov 23 '10 at 09:40
  • @Kevin, I buy what you are demanding but I still value the opinions. In retrospect, I would not have ever imagined such answers and suggestions were I not to ask.Thanks for your involvement. – Unknown Nov 23 '10 at 11:59
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    Kevin, my criterion for keeping MO questions open has almost entirely to do with the level of mathematical sophistication, rather than degree of formalization, and questions of the form "Can we prove fundamental theorem X with (or without) method Y" are on topic. Although as you and Timothy Chow point out, ruling out a method seems difficult, providing a postive instance does not. In particular, if there is a proof of Cantor's theorem that differs fundamentally from those I know, I am keen to learn about it. Bill's answer comes close, but is at bottom still a diagonalization. – Joel David Hamkins Nov 23 '10 at 12:50
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    The reals are complete, that seems to be a rather pertinent fact. Perhaps you can use some manner of argument along those lines, though I too am no logician, I don't know if something about completeness requires diagonalization under some guise or other. – Adam Hughes Nov 26 '10 at 18:10
  • One could also ask whether uncountability of reals depends on the Axiom of Choice. Since the diagonalization argument seems to depend on the Axiom of Choice, a proof that doesn't couldn't possibly be a veiled version of Cantor's argument. – Michael Oct 17 '14 at 16:08
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    The diagonalization argument doesn't use the axiom of choice. It uses the Cantor–Schröder–Bernstein Theorem (to show that $\mathbb{R} \simeq \mathcal{P}\mathbb{N}$), which needs only Excluded Middle (although it's simpler if you use the Well-Ordering Theorem, as Cantor did). That $\mathbb{N} \not\simeq \mathcal{P}\mathbb{N}$ is fully constructive (although it's simpler if you use Excluded Middle, as Cantor did). – Toby Bartels Oct 20 '14 at 00:42
  • You can find such proofs (ones that use only the set-theoretic/logical axioms that are needed) at http://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/Cantor-Schroeder-Bernstein+theorem and http://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/Cantor%27s+theorem – Toby Bartels Oct 20 '14 at 00:45
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    Cantor's diagonal argument in base $2$ is very similar to Russel's paradox. – Ronald J. Zallman Apr 06 '19 at 22:26

21 Answers21

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Mathematics isn't yet ready to prove results of the form, "Every proof of Theorem T must use Argument A." Think closely about how you might try to prove something like that. You would need to set up some plausible system for mathematics in which Cantor's diagonal argument is blocked and the reals are countable. Nobody has any idea how to do that.

The best you can hope for is to look at each proof on a case-by-case basis and decide, subjectively, whether it is "essentially the diagonal argument in disguise." If you're lucky, you'll run into one that your intuition tells you is a fundamentally different proof, and that will settle the question to your satisfaction. But if that doesn't happen, then the most you'll be able to say is that every known proof seems to you to be the same. As explained above, you won't be able to conclude definitively that every possible argument must use diagonalization.

ADDENDUM (August 2020). Normann and Sanders have a very interesting paper that sheds new light on the uncountability of $\mathbb R$. In particular they study two specific formulations of the uncountability of $\mathbb R$:

$\mathsf{NIN}$: For any $Y:[0,1] \to \mathbb{N}$, there exist $x,y \in [0,1]$ such that $x\ne_{\mathbb{R}} y$ and $Y(x) =_{\mathbb{N}} Y(y)$.

$\mathsf{NBI}$: For any $Y[0,1] \to \mathbb{N}$, either there exist $x,y \in [0,1]$ such that $x\ne_{\mathbb{R}} y$ and $Y(x) =_{\mathbb{N}} Y(y)$, or there exists $N\in\mathbb{N}$ such that $(\forall x\in [0,1])(Y(x) \ne N)$.

One of their results is that a system called ${\mathsf Z}_2^\omega$ does not prove $\mathsf{NIN}$. Their model of $\neg\mathsf{NIN}$ can therefore be interpreted as a situation where the reals are countable! Nevertheless we are still far from showing that Cantor's diagonal argument is needed to prove that the reals are uncountable. A further caveat is that Normann and Sanders argue that the unprovability of $\mathsf{NIN}$ in ${\mathsf Z}_2^\omega$—which might at first sight suggest that $\mathsf{NIN}$ is a strong axiom—is an artificial result, and that the proper framework for studying $\mathsf{NIN}$ and $\mathsf{NBI}$ is what they call a “non-normal scale,” in which $\mathsf{NIN}$ and $\mathsf{NBI}$ are very weak. In particular their paper gives lots of examples of statements that imply $\mathsf{NIN}$ and $\mathsf{NBI}$. I suspect, though, that you'll probably feel that the proofs of those other statements smuggle in Cantor's diagonal argument one way or another.

ADDENDUM (December 2022). I just listened to an amazing talk by Andrej Bauer, reporting on joint work with James Hanson. If you start listening around 14:53, you'll see how, in the context of intuitionistic logic, one can formulate precisely the question of whether there is a proof of the uncountability of the reals that doesn't use diagonalization. Bauer and Hanson don't answer this question, but they construct something they call a "parameterized realizability topos" in which the Dedekind reals are countable. In particular, this shows that higher-order intuitionistic logic (in which one cannot formulate the usual diagonalization argument) cannot show the reals are uncountable. Now, you could still justifiably claim that this whole line of research does not really address the original question, which I presume tacitly assumes classical logic; nevertheless, this still comes closer than anything else I've seen.

Timothy Chow
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    Oh...Thank you. I did not think the question will go this far. So, the question is pretty like the statement in Cosmology: "The observable universe is finite but nobody yet knows whether it is infinite or not, let alone boundedness." – Unknown Nov 22 '10 at 18:49
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    Well, there is Quine's New Foundations in set theory, in which the diagonal argument is blocked from disproving the existence of a set of all sets, because of the inability to express the predicate $x \not \in x$. But I gather that NF does not block the diagonal argument from demonstrating the uncountability of the reals, so this isn't quite an answer to the problem at hand... – Terry Tao Nov 22 '10 at 23:28
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    Thank you. Now, I know that it is possible to block diagonalization in some setting. – Unknown Nov 23 '10 at 11:55
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    Reverse mathematics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_mathematics) is almost exactly about studying which axioms and arguments are necessary for certain theorems. If you want to know whether axiom X is necessary for a theorem Y, you can try to see if there's a model of Y in which X doesn't hold. It's not as easy to see whether a certain argument is necessary, but often you can axiomatize what it means to be able to do a certain argument, e.g. there are systems which capture what it means to be able to use a compactness argument, or induction, or transfinite recursion, etc. – Amit Kumar Gupta Nov 23 '10 at 18:27
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    @Amit: Yes, I'm familiar with reverse mathematics. But let me repeat what I said above: Think closely! How would you axiomatize what it means to be able to diagonalize? What candidate do you have in mind for a model in which the reals are countable? I stand by what I said; nobody has a clue. – Timothy Chow Nov 24 '10 at 02:28
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  • Are you saying reverse math never proves results of the form "Argument A is necessary for Theorem T" (in some reasonable sense of the word "necessary")? 2. You presume that diagonalization is necessary for Cantor's theorem - someone who believes not wouldn't need a model where the reals are countable. 3. Why is it that "being able to diagonalize" can't be axiomatized? A huge variety of arguments get referred to as compactness arguments, so naively one would think you couldn't axiomatize "being able to do a compactness argument", but doesn't Weak Konig's Lemma sort of do just that?
  • – Amit Kumar Gupta Nov 25 '10 at 08:44
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    Actually following Terry's comment, "being able to diagonalize" might be axiomatized a scheme for Comprehension or Separation involving non-stratifiable formulas. – Amit Kumar Gupta Nov 26 '10 at 01:22
  • @Amit: 1. No. 2. No, I'm not presuming that "diagonalization is necessary for Cantor's theorem"; that's what Solomon was conjecturing, and I'm just saying we're not in a position to prove such a thing. 3. Maybe it's possible, but I don't think anyone has any idea how to do it. I don't think your proposal about non-stratifiable formulas will work, but if you can do it, more power to you. Here's another context where we'd love to axiomatize diagonalization: in computational complexity, folklore says that "diagonalization relativizes." There's still no good axiomatization of this "fact." – Timothy Chow Nov 29 '10 at 21:17
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    @TimothyChow: I agree with both you and Amit. Following on Amit's comments, I'd like to draw your attention to the seeming conflict between your answer to his question 1, and the first sentence of your posted answer. I think a fairer answer, which I hope you'd agree with, might be to say that Reverse Math would be the right domain in which to try to prove that diagonalization is necessary for uncountability of the reals, but the difficulty is that no one has any idea how to formalize the notion of "diagonalization" within Reverse Math. – Joshua Grochow Oct 02 '17 at 21:19
  • @JoshuaGrochow : I don't really see what is gained by using the term "reverse math" here. It comes down to what I said at first: one needs to construct a plausible system for mathematics in which the reals are countable. I think that this is a clearer and more accurate way to describe the obstacle than to talk about "how to formalize the notion of diagonalization within reverse math." – Timothy Chow Oct 02 '17 at 23:42
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    @TimothyChow: I agree with you in terms of clarity of the underlying issue. However, the point of mentioning Reverse Math is that it is an active area of mathematical research that deals precisely with questions of the form "Is A necessary to prove B?", but it is an area of math that many mathematicians are not aware even exists (and they cannot even conceive how one might prove such a statement). So, in that sense, I suppose mentioning this area of math is more for the benefit of advertising than anything else. – Joshua Grochow Oct 03 '17 at 19:12
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    @TimothyChow From what I've seen, I agree with you that this sort of mathematics hasn't been studied at nearly the level required to prove such a theorem, but "nobody has any idea", I don't think is a very good way to surmise the situation. In particular, for set theory developed over a certain paraconsistent logic, Cantor's theorem is unprovable. See "What is wrong with Cantor's diagonal argument?" by Ross Brady and Penelope Rush. So, if one developed enough of reverse mathematics in such a context, one could I think meaningfully ask this question. – Nathan BeDell Oct 25 '17 at 12:50
  • @NathanBeDell : thanks for the reference, which is interesting and which I didn't know about. However, I still think that this paper gives us no idea how to answer the original question, which is a question about classical logic. One could formulate an analogous question in the context of a non-classical logic, and maybe even answer it, but it would still not address the original question of whether every classical proof of the classical theorem must use diagonalization. – Timothy Chow Oct 25 '17 at 15:04