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It seems we attribute effects to particles, but why does it seem that we don't try to answer the question: how does it have this effect?

For example, in modelling the hydrogen atom with quantum mechanics, one simply posits that the Hamiltonian contains a Coulomb potential describing the force between the proton and the electron. Can we understand the origin of that force with QM?

innisfree
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    What is your question? – ACuriousMind Jul 05 '14 at 14:16
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    Well, what is the step by step mechanism that creates the attractive force of the nucleus. I understand that it has units of force attributed to it, but I have never seen a proposed step by step mechanism displaying the creation of this force. – Daniel Maksuta Jul 05 '14 at 14:40
  • Forces arise through the interaction of matter particles with force carrier particles. Somehow, I don't think that is what you mean by "step by step" mechanism. Could you clarify what exactly you don't understand about forces in the quantum world? – ACuriousMind Jul 05 '14 at 14:43
  • A mechanism explains why those different particles are necessary. For example: the creation of $H^+$ from HCl could be the exchange of two waves, that are supported, not destroyed, by the waves created by the nuclei. The use of quantum mechanics gives a probability distribution, not a mechanism, for functionality. – Daniel Maksuta Jul 05 '14 at 15:20
  • It does give principles that create restrictions to the probability distribution. How does a photon excite an electron? You could just say it transfers kinetic energy via an exchange particle; but that is not a mechanism; that is merely saying that the before and after are different. What is the mechanism that creates gravity? How does a nucleus that appears periodic create a continuous force? – Daniel Maksuta Jul 05 '14 at 15:21
  • Ultimately, I would like a geometric approach to these things, rather than a [unit] approach. – Daniel Maksuta Jul 05 '14 at 15:28
  • Do you mean, for example, that in modelling the hydrogen atom with quantum mechanics, one simply posits that the Hamiltonian contains a Coulomb potential describing the force between the proton and the electron. Do you want to know the whether we can understand the origin of that force with QM? is that your question? – innisfree Jul 05 '14 at 16:00
  • In a sense innisfree, yes. – Daniel Maksuta Jul 05 '14 at 16:02
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    This universal Phys.SE answer might to some degree be useful here as well. – Qmechanic Jul 06 '14 at 14:46

2 Answers2

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I think you are confused as to how the quantum world really works:

The basic insight of quantum mechanics is that the world is non-deterministic, there are no local hidden variables (and if you believe that non-local hidden variables are a good idea, you better had a damn good reason). The Bell inequalities show us that no mechanistic theory can ever reproduce the predictions of quantum mechanics (which are experimentally found to be indeed correct).

Now, as pointed out in the comments, it is not the time evolution of the world that is non-deterministic. The Hamiltonian is still the generator of time translation, and we are still (in principle) able to fully predict the quantum state of a system at any given time if we are provided with its initial state. But even the full quantum state does not allow a deterministic prediction what a specific measurement will result in. Unless it is an eigenstate of the observable measured, the quantum state comes equipped with precise probabilities for each possible result of the measurement, which are emphatically not due to imperfections in the ways we measure. So, the world in the abstract sense as described by physical law is still deterministic, but what we observe is not. We can predict the probability with which a result occurs, but we cannot predict the result itself. The essence of Bell's theorem is that it is impossible to produce a local theory that predicts the results of measurements deterministically.

While quantum mechanics and quantum field theories are only effective theories, i.e. there may well be an underlying theory that is different, we know that it will also only be probabilistic. The basic building blocks of nature are neither particles nor waves, as quantum mechanics tells us that the objects that constitute reality behave as if they are states in a Hilbert space, which possess some qualities of particles (they can have momenta and positions) and some of waves (they can "interfere"). But they are neither.

Your "mechanisms" can't exist because the way the world works on the most fundamental level that is as of yet known to us does not work intuitively. You cannot really understand QM by thinking about point-like particles or interfering waves, you have to accept that reality is stranger than we can imagine. Our minds are not able to really grasp what states in a Hilbert space are since nothing on a macroscopic scale is like that, and all of our intuition comes from the macroscopic world.

I unfortunately don't understand what you mean with a "geometric" approach you desire in your comments, but I suspect it ultimately also relies on the wishful thinking that observables be deterministic. They are not.

The origin of the electromagnetic force can not be understood with QM. It is only apparent if we take the full classical gauge theory of electromagnetism and quantize it (either by Gupta-Bleuler quantization or through the BRST formalism in the path integral approach), thus creating a quantum field theory, that the Coulamb potential indeed arises in the non-relativistic limit by considering the relevant Feynman diagrams. I am not certain that you wish to see the explicit calculation, but tell me if you want to.

ACuriousMind
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  • It's just that when some particle moves somewhere, I believe something has to fill the space that it left. But what happens when something can't fill that space?

    This type of intuition leads me to believe that this is how we transition from periodic force to continuous force. How we transition from motion to force; why some things appear to ebb and other seem act in a continuous manner. How a single thing can do two different things.

    – Daniel Maksuta Jul 05 '14 at 15:45
  • Your belief is wrong. Nothing "fills" space. There is no aether. Empty space is perfectly fine with being empty. I don't understand what you are saying about periodic and continuous forces, since those two notions are not opposites. Almost all periodic functions appearing in physics are continuous. – ACuriousMind Jul 05 '14 at 15:47
  • i meant continuous as constant. my apologies. – Daniel Maksuta Jul 05 '14 at 15:51
  • because if everything was constant we would not see waves. – Daniel Maksuta Jul 05 '14 at 15:53
  • but my question is not that well formulated, I apologize for that. I will ask this question again when I realize a better wording for it. – Daniel Maksuta Jul 05 '14 at 15:55
  • Can you try (perhaps ask a new question or edit this one) to make your questions and statements in a way that is well-defined? Where do you get these ideas from? What would be constant? Which forces are you imagining to be constant? What periodicity are you thinking of? As it stands, I honestly have no idea how to answer you. – ACuriousMind Jul 05 '14 at 15:56
  • well, my closing comment before I rework this will be that if a particle leaves an area, it is changing the environment it has left, and that environment will do something to compensate. The particle and environment are not two separate things. – Daniel Maksuta Jul 05 '14 at 16:01
  • QM is deterministic within some interpretations. Simple time evolution of a wave-function with the Schroedinger equation. – innisfree Jul 05 '14 at 16:04
  • -1: Quantum mechanics does not tell us that the world is non-deterministic, that's one of the primary misconceptions about quantum mechanics that we should be careful not to propagate. As @innisfree points out, quantum mechanics tells us that the state of a system evolves deterministically according to a first order differential equation; the Schrodinger equation. Of course there are issues regarding measurement etc., but I don't think that the modern view is that the resolution is to modify the Schrodinger eq. – joshphysics Jul 06 '14 at 01:47
  • @joshphysics: My intention was not to suggest that time evolution is non-deterministic, and I apologize that I created that impression. I added a paragraph discussing that, though I become increasingly unsure if my ramblings really address the OP's original question. – ACuriousMind Jul 06 '14 at 02:17
  • I think we need to take a bunch of steps back and talk about how science works. It doesn't matter at all what you believe, what seems intuitive, or what fits nicely into your pre-established worldview. The only thing that decides if a theory is right or wrong is experiment. It seems that you already have in mind what answer you want to hear. – Ryan Lafferty Jul 06 '14 at 04:08
  • There are so many "nos" and "can'ts" in your explanation (?) (followed by this downer: "Our minds are not able to really grasp ...") that one can hardly help but quit physics and undertake some less upsetting hobby/profession. However, I found in there these hope-rising quotations: "Your 'mechanisms' can't exist because the way the world works on the most fundamental level that is as of yet known to us does not work intuitively," and "... there may well be an underlying theory that is different ..." These two saved my day ... – bright magus Aug 10 '14 at 08:25
  • @ACuriousMind : $;$ had $\mapsto$ have $;;;;$ –  Sep 09 '14 at 10:12
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Ok the answer already posted by CuriousMind, explains in a nutshel the (official) interpretation of QM plus some application aspects.

However since i think i understand the motivation of the question, i will try to give another answer.

First although Bell's theorem of no-local realism is indeed important, there are in fact other formulations (or more correctly interpretations) of QM, which arrive at the same central equation (i.e Schrodinger equation) albeit though different premises and interpretation, but nevertheless explain and predict exactly the same things conventional QM does (e.g Bohmian Mechanics and others). In order not to feel ugly if one does not like the official QM too much, remember that Einstein himself famously did not subscribe to that interpretation (of course even Einstein can be wrong).

Now concerning the nature of "forces", this is an issue that has multiple facets. For example gravity, in General Relativity, is just curvature of space, whereas by Newton's original formulation can be assigned to the (gravitational) mass of objects.

Electromagnetism similarly is assigned to (the motion of) charged particles (among others).

There are even forces (or apparent forces) which although real (and experienced) are not assigned to a particle or object but rather to a relative motion between systems of objects (will leave that for now).

Similarly in QM, many forces just carry from the classical description into a quantum one by the process known as quantization. This is based on a principle of QM that it should re-produce classical results if taken to this limit (known as principle of correspondence).

When no classical description is available to apply to a quantum system, a suitable generalization is sought (usually) that generalises a known classical description and when quantized gives correct results (an example is Yang-Mills theory which generalises electromagnetism in multiple dimensions). As a result then any (conserved generalised) charges are taken to be the source of the associated generalised forces (which make the objects interact) that also are described (exactly like electromagnetism) by the theory.

UPDATE:

As one can see in the answer (and in how physics descriptions are made and used), there is an equivalence between these 3 concepts:

"CHARGE" - "MOTION / INTERACTION" - "FORCE"

Now one can use one or two of these concepts and have the third as a derivative concept, for example one can use "charge" and "motion" of objects and derive a concept of "force" which unites these concepts in various compatibility conditions for a given system.

Alternatively one can use "force" and "motion" and derive a "charge" concept which similarly is used to define compatibility conditions for a given system that relate "force" and "interaction".

The fact remains that these concepts (or more correctly descriptions) are related in various ways and describe conditions on the evolution of given systems. One can use words like "force" or "charge" (which are generalizations or extarpolations of other cases), one can as well use words with no previous meaning (like "quarks" or "strangeness" etc..). It is not of the essense although in many cases it can imply meaningful generalisations

Nikos M.
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  • What do you mean by official interpretation? – innisfree Jul 07 '14 at 06:30
  • @innisfree, well i use various adjectives ("official", "conventional" etc..) in one word "copenhagen" (i think it is made clear, esp by reference to Bohm et al formulations) – Nikos M. Jul 07 '14 at 09:42
  • I want to note that your tripel charge/interaction/force does not withstand a rigorous treatment, though it is a nice picture. A charge means the charged object transforms non-trivially under some gauge representation. Yet, there are frames in which there are apparent forces (think centrifugal force), which are not connected to such a charge. It is also an open question whether gravitation can be understood that way. Interactions in QFTs are also not always related to charges, even a real scalar field can interact with itself as per $\phi^4$-theory. – ACuriousMind Jul 08 '14 at 00:07
  • @ACuriousMind, yes you have a point, as stated it is a rather loose relation (although in many cases the relation is straightforward). It is meant mostly to highlight the interplay (as per the question) – Nikos M. Jul 08 '14 at 12:17
  • @ACuriousMind, plus try to introduce (in simple terms), things like gauge symmetry, Noether's theorem, etc.. – Nikos M. Jul 08 '14 at 12:29