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The set theory ETCS famously comes without the Replacement axiom schema (or an equivalent) that is part of ZFC. One (to me, not apparently useful) set that one cannot build in ETCS is $\coprod_{n\in \mathbb{N}} P^n(\mathbb{N})$. Jacob Lurie pointed out on Michael Harris' blog1 the example of taking a Banach space $V$ and considering the colimit of the sequence $V \to V^{**}\to V^{*4} \to \cdots$. Yemon Choi responded to a foolish suggestion of mine that this sequence (or rather, the related cosimplicial object) is in fact of use.

This got me to thinking that from a category-theoretic point of view, we are used to not having enough colimits (say in geometric settings, like schemes, manifolds, and so on) or limits (for instance in settings like finite groups etc), and this is deftly sidestepped by using a colimit completion. One can consider ind-schemes, or differentiable stacks, etc etc. Why should ETCS be any different, apart from intending to be the primordial category?

What stops me from working, when I need to, in a slightly larger category that is in a sense a colimit-completion of an ETCS category, with the understanding that most of the time I'm interested in objects in my original category, but sometimes constructions I'm interested in sit outside it? The original example above is perfectly well represented as the sequence $k\mapsto \coprod_{0\leq n\leq k} P^n(\mathbb{N})$, with the obvious inclusions between them.

Note that I'm not asking that arbitrary objects in the completed category are necessarily the stuff of ordinary mathematics, or that the completed category is a topos, or a model of ETCS. But what can go wrong with this approach? What are the usual uses of Replacement in "ordinary mathematics" (almost anything that's not ZFC-and-friends) that could/couldn't be sorted by the method proposed above?


1 The context of the discussion was the effect on ordinary mathematics the discovery that ZFC was inconsistent. Tom Leinster argues (and I agree) that the most likely culprit would be Replacement, since the rest of ZFC is essentially equivalent to ETCS, and the axioms of ETCS encode the operations on sets that underly day-to-day practice of people who aren't set theorists.

[EDIT: On reflection, I'm putting words into Tom's mouth a little here. The actual point he has made is that if a contradiction were found with using Replacement, it wouldn't affect most mathematicians, but it a contradiction were found in ETCS (equivalently, BZC) then we could start to worry. If we assume that 'ordinary' mathematics is consistent, as it seems to be, then one might make the---justified or not---leap that a little-used axiom is the place a contradiction might be found, if one existed. As others have pointed out in the comments below, Comprehension is also a contender for a 'risky' axiom.]

David Roberts
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    It always bothers me when people from category theory question Replacement. The idea behind the categorical approach, as I understand it, is that functions are more important than elements. Replacement tells you the universe is closed under definable functions. Functions! – Asaf Karagila Jun 08 '15 at 06:09
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    @Asaf but functions in etcs come with a specified codomain! And saying functions are more important is not quite right: the structure of the category is what is important, and that includes sets and functions. – David Roberts Jun 08 '15 at 06:10
  • That's your problem, not mine! :-P More seriously, though, yes they do which is why separation is enough. I guess that defining things is not important from a categorical point of view. Now, I'm gonna sit this one out for now. – Asaf Karagila Jun 08 '15 at 06:13
  • Well, the question is not aimed at ZFC-theorists, and deliberately titled in a provocative way, so I forgive you :-) – David Roberts Jun 08 '15 at 06:15
  • @AsafKaragila you might like to consider the question to be an obvious analogue of that of removing Choice from set theory :-) – David Roberts Jun 08 '15 at 06:25
  • Not exactly, even more so when Replacement is such a ZFC thing, it's nearly obvious that "working" mathematics can go without it for the most part. And yet, you're appealing to the non set theorists of the crowd... – Asaf Karagila Jun 08 '15 at 06:31
  • There are analogues of Replacement for ETCS, and I'm happy to use them, if I insist on using ETCS. Regarding "... for the most part", that's what I'm trying to pin down, or get a handle on. Since, traditionally, the lack of Replacement was a whip to beat proponents of ETCS (sadly, yes, in addition to being categorically minded), one wonders where the boundary is so it can be carefully examined. – David Roberts Jun 08 '15 at 06:35
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    The example with $(X, P (X), P^2 (X), \ldots)$ is more subtle than it looks. For instance, imagine a model of ETCS with non-standard naturals: then you wouldn't even be able to define $P^n (X)$ for all natural numbers $n$, let alone apply replacement to that "function". These two issues – the "large" recursion principle and the axiom of replacement – seem to be intertwined in category-theoretic formulations of set theory. – Zhen Lin Jun 08 '15 at 07:21
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    Borel determinacy? – Monroe Eskew Jun 08 '15 at 07:34
  • @ZhenLin good point, and it shows that someone should sort this out. Do you think is it at all related to definability considerations? – David Roberts Jun 08 '15 at 08:11
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    @Monroe ok, but I'm not just after places where Replacement is used, but whether one can do some categorical hack to get around its absence. – David Roberts Jun 08 '15 at 08:13
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    I'm not sure if Borel determinacy counts as "ordinary" enough. But the reason why I mention it is that Harvey Friedman proved that Replacement is actually needed for the proof. So no "hack" is available. – Monroe Eskew Jun 08 '15 at 08:15
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    @Monroe since Determinacy of other/stronger varieties seems to be connected to large cardinals (proper class of Woodins, anyone?), I'm usually dubious it is 'ordinary' mathematics. But people (HF, for instance) might claim since it is about real numbers, it's obviously 'ordinary'. But Con(ZFC) is a statement in arithmetic... – David Roberts Jun 08 '15 at 08:19
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    David, Borel determinacy is a theorem of ZFC, of course. And since this is "related to large cardinals", need I remind you that categories are related to von Neumann universes which themselves are related to inaccessible cardinals... So by the transitive property, Supermean beats The Flash. – Asaf Karagila Jun 08 '15 at 08:22
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    I don't think it's fair to judge a proposition as "extraordinary" just because of its unexpected consequences. – Monroe Eskew Jun 08 '15 at 08:24
  • @Monroe I'm not making a claim either way, it's an interesting boundary case. – David Roberts Jun 08 '15 at 08:26
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    David, I find the philosophy of "If we need more colimits, let's just assume they exist" to be a bit lacking. How do you know they exist? Well, you essentially invoke some instance of Replacement which seems "reasonable" enough to be true. But when you start making this assumption rather arbitrarily, how is this not the same as just assuming Replacement? – Asaf Karagila Jun 08 '15 at 08:28
  • I don't think definability is especially important. It only comes in because the axiom of replacement as formulated classically is a first-order axiom scheme. I do not know of a good way of formulating the notion of a "definable endofunctor", which would be needed to formalise the principle that "endofunctors can be iterated" in first-order logic. – Zhen Lin Jun 08 '15 at 08:30
  • @Asaf the whole philosophy of Grothendieck in algebraic geometry was essentially this, with great success. Clearly one needs to formalise what it means, but the point is to describe a new category, with a suitable relation to the old one, in which the colimit exists. The new category is not likely to be a model of etcs, so no rabbits have been pulled from hats. – David Roberts Jun 08 '15 at 08:49
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    Perhaps one could frame the question as follows: is a suitable formulation in set theory of the principle that David wants simply equivalent to the replacement axiom? Or is it provable in a weaker set theory? – Joel David Hamkins Jun 08 '15 at 12:42
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    This question seems quite related: http://mathoverflow.net/questions/121406/where-in-ordinary-math-do-we-need-unbounded-separation-and-replacement – Emil Jeřábek Jun 08 '15 at 13:37
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    If I recall correctly, we should note that any elementary topos is already complete and cocomplete in the sense that every internal diagram has a limit and a colimit (e.g. Set has all small limits and colimits and FinSet has all finite limits and colimits). Since external structures are crucial to the very premise, we should probably treat it explicitly; e.g. look a boolean category with an ETCS object, and figure out what we need from that, and maybe later see what can be internalized. This would also be a start on addressing @ZhenLin's comment. –  Jun 08 '15 at 17:03
  • @Hurkyl and you probably already know that colimits of internal diagrams are kinda boring, since even writing down the diagram means constructing the colimit (which, formally, is just forgetting the indexing map). See my second comment on François' answer for the relation between internal and external. – David Roberts Jun 09 '15 at 00:48
  • @Emil thanks for the reminder! I see I was quite engaged over there (and quite argumentative, more so than I might be now...) – David Roberts Jun 09 '15 at 05:07
  • @DavidRoberts: This may be a trivial (even silly) question, but what happens to the category $Set$ if one abandons Replacement? If I understand correctly, $Set$ is the category whose objects satisfy the ZF axioms--Extensionality, Replacement, Sum, Powerset, Regularity, Infinity and Empty Set (Pairing can be derived from these other axioms). Isn't Category Theory supposed to be the study of interrelationships between structures? Certainly ETCS may not need Replacement, and may be a suitable foundation for 'Ordinary Mathemetics', but $Set$ (by definition) certainly does. Is $Set$ now not a – Thomas Benjamin Jun 20 '15 at 08:55
  • (cont.) legitimate category? – Thomas Benjamin Jun 20 '15 at 08:57
  • @Thomas "Set is the category..." - no, Set is the category of sets with your favourite axioms for sets, for instance Z, BZC, ZF, ZFC, ETCS, SEAR,... In particular, what happens to Set when not assuming Replacement is that you get the category of sets without Replacement (one might want to to throw in some of the usual consequences, like bounded separation...). I don't know what you mean by "not a legitimate category", would you care to elaborate? – David Roberts Jun 20 '15 at 23:09
  • @DavidRoberts: If such is the case, then it might be a good idea to distinguish the various categories $Set$ in this manner: $Set_{ZF}$, $Set_{ETCS}$ $Set_{ZFC}$, etc. and and study the functors between them (hopefully this is not to trivial an exercise). As regards the categories $Set_{ZF}$, $Set_{ZFC}$ (Replacement, of course, holds in both of them), Replacement says, in effect, that if F is a definable class function (for $ZF$ and $ZFC$, classes are formulas definable in the language of set theory), $Set_{ZF}$ and $Set_{ZFC}$ are closed under such functions. This allows one to deem – Thomas Benjamin Jun 23 '15 at 01:49
  • (cont.) $Set_{ZF}$ and $Set_{ZFC}$ categories with sets as objects and definable class functions as the morphisms. As regards the question of legitimate categories, would the inconsistency of $ZF$ and $ZFC$ make the categories $Set_{ZF}$ and $Set_{ZFC}$ illegitimate? Indeed, would the collection of sets and definable functions formed by the two-axiom system Extensionality and Unrestricted Comprehension (certainly inconsistent by Russell's paradox) even form a category? – Thomas Benjamin Jun 23 '15 at 02:07
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    @Thomas was is your definition of an illegitimate category? Is it just that the morphisms between a pair of objects don't form a set? Note that at a foundational level, we do not ask for that: a category is a perfectly good first-order structure (and Eilenberg and Mac Lane define it this way in the original paper, IIRC). I think you are conflating two meanings of the word 'closure' when you are talking about definable class functions. From where I stand, Replacement says that given a function with domain a set S, the range is a set. When one talks of the category of sets and functions, ... – David Roberts Jun 23 '15 at 02:28
  • ... functions are equipped with codomains. There is no such thing, from the point of view of the category of sets, of a function "from a set to the universe". Given a definable class function F, in your proposal, what is its codomain? If it's just the range, then every function in surjective, and this is not a very interesting category, and certainly not the category of sets and functions as usually construed. The category of sets in your two-axiom system may well be the category consisting of $\emptyset$ and the unique function from it to itself. – David Roberts Jun 23 '15 at 02:34
  • I don't know if unrestricted Comprehension implies the existence of any other sets. In fact, you could even dump Extensionality, since that's not needed to define a category (you need it to define a strict category, http://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/strict+category). – David Roberts Jun 23 '15 at 02:44
  • @DavidRoberts: Actually, I don't believe in the existence of 'illegitimate categories'. For me, if a 'collection' (be they sets, classes, proper classes, conglomerates, whatever...) of objects and morphisms satisfy the axioms for a Category, then it is a legitimate Category. I mentioned the possible inconsistency of $ZF$ and $ZFC$ because Tom Lienster, in his preprint "Rethinking set theory" (arXiv:[math.LO] 1212.6543v1) mentions that even if $ZFC$ and $ZF$ were to be proven to be inconsistent, $ETCS$, because of the 'fact' that its ten axioms "are such core mathematical principles" – Thomas Benjamin Jun 25 '15 at 07:38
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    (cont.) because they "reflect how sets are used in everyday mathematics", would be "less likely to be inconsistent". This might be a reason for some to conclude that $Set_{ZFC}$ and $Set_{ZF}$ would, as categories, be less 'legitimate' than, say, $Set_{ETCS}$. Regarding ideal set theory (the two-axiom set theory consisting of Extensionality and Unrestricted Comprehension), one could use a weaker paraconsistent logic as rules of inference (rules of inference in a formal theory $T$ would be, I guess, morphisms from the collection of axioms of $T$ to the theorems of $T$) to keep – Thomas Benjamin Jun 25 '15 at 07:55
  • @ThomasBenjamin yes, I mentioned Leinster's viewpoint in the footnote, and its edit, to my question. – David Roberts Jun 25 '15 at 08:01
  • (cont.) Russell''s paradox from implying that all the wff's of Ideal set theory are theorems. Under that collection of 'morphisms' Russell's paradox would seemingly be 'tamed'. Are the rules of inference that form the morphisms of paraconsistent logic 'legitimate'? I would say so. – Thomas Benjamin Jun 25 '15 at 08:04
  • @DavidRoberts: Yes, I see that. Does this point of view imply that $Set_{ZF}$ and $Set_{ZFC}$ are less 'legitimate' categories than $Set_{ETCS}$? Note that adding a form of Replacement to $ETCS$ (the one mentioned in Leinster's preprint) would make the resulting theory "biconsistent" (i.e. having the same theorems hold) with $ZFC$. Why should this form of Replacement be more problematic than the ten axioms of $ETCS$? – Thomas Benjamin Jun 25 '15 at 08:15
  • @ThomasBenjamin no, I don't think it makes them less legitimate in any sense, any more than not knowing that PA is consistent makes models of PA any less legitimate. Any proof that someone carries out in ZFC only uses finitely many axioms, and certain special cases of Replacement, so I don't think proofs would suddenly fall apart. "Why should this form of Replacement be more problematic" as we see from the discussion, almost no one uses Replacement. It's not more problematic, just it would be less of a hassle if it turned out to imply a contradiction (I mean, we dropped full Comprehension...) – David Roberts Jun 25 '15 at 08:24
  • @DavidRoberts: here is a minuscule point relevant to the OP that was not mentioned so far and may be new even to you: in his recommendable and Carl-B.-Allendoerfer-Award-winning essay The three crises in mathematics: Logicism, intuitionism and formalism. Mathematics Magazine, Vol. 52 (1979), pp. 207-216., (which I won't link to strike a balance between the borderline-irrelevance of the article), E. Snapper 'filters' the nine axioms of ZFC by an interesting criterion: imagine you were a strict logicist and only accepted axioms which can reasonably be held to be [...] – Peter Heinig Sep 17 '17 at 17:33
  • [...] "logical propositions" (to use Snapper's words). Then you would tend to cling to Replacement: snapper argues that 7 of the 9 axioms of ZFC make it through the filter, and, this being the minuscule point, the rather bulkly Axiom of Replacement makes it through Snapper's filter. Only AC and Infinity are held back. (Snapper seems to consider the latter two to be something like 'empirically true', not 'analytically/logically true'.) So one could answer the title of the OP with "The logicists do. Without Replacement, they would be left with a stump of at most 6 out of the 9 axioms of ZFC." – Peter Heinig Sep 17 '17 at 17:38
  • Link to Snapper's article: https://www.maa.org/programs/maa-awards/writing-awards/the-three-crises-in-mathematics-logicism-intuitionism-and-formalism – David Roberts Sep 17 '17 at 23:03
  • @Peter "At least two of the axioms ... cannot possibly be considered as logical propositions" (emphasis added) -- how do you get from this that Replacement is one of the axioms that can be considered as a logical proposition? – David Roberts Sep 17 '17 at 23:19
  • @DavidRoberts: good point. On the level of coarseness of propositional logic / without analyzing the axioms it is indeed impossible to "get from this" the conclusion that "Replacement [...] can be considered as a logical proposition". One simply does not know what value of $a$ is in Snappers "$a\geq 2$". So the answer is "I don't get it from this." It is another question whether it is a tenable position that Replacement is a logical proposition. And this question splits into (0) the bibliographical question whether Snapper did so, and (1) what the truth of the matter is. – Peter Heinig Sep 18 '17 at 05:52
  • [incidentally, and being aware that (0) you probably are well-aware of this, and (1) the following does not meet your "almost anything that's not ZFC-and-friends" condition: a 'usual use' of Replacement seems to prove *the existence of $\omega\cdot 2$, which ZFC-Replacements seems not to be able to. Again: I know that $\omega\cdot 2$ has quite a set-theoretic flavour. Perhaps one can find uses of it in functional analysis.] – Peter Heinig Oct 01 '17 at 06:03
  • @Peter that's a countable ordinal, and ETCS, equiv. BZC, can certainly define the order types of countable ordinals, if not the Von Neumann ordinal corresponding to it. See https://mathoverflow.net/a/74940/4177 - since "ordinary mathematics" is isomorphism invariant, needing a specific material set representing an order type is not what I was after. – David Roberts Oct 01 '17 at 06:37
  • As Andreas notes in his answer there: The moral of this story is that, in Zermelo set theory and related systems, ordinals should not be defined using the von Neumann representation but rather as isomorphism classes of well-orderings. – David Roberts Oct 01 '17 at 06:47

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I think the main reason replacement is seen as an essential part of ZF is that it naturally follows from the ontology of set theory, as do the other axioms of ZF. The ontology of set theory is rooted in the idea that sets are obtained by an iterative process along a wellordered "ordinal clock", where at each step all the sets whose elements were generated earlier now appear. It is intuitively clear that, in order to be exhaustive, this process must go on for a long, long time. From this point of view, the replacement axiom can be intuitively stated: no set can be used as an indexing of a family of ordinals that reaches to the end of the ordinal timeline. This is a natural consequence of the idea that the iterative process should be exhaustive.

Another interesting aspect of replacement is that (in most formulations of ZFC) it is logically equivalent to reflection. (Informally: for any formula $\sigma(\vec{x})$ in the language of set theory, if $V \models \sigma(\vec{x})$ then there is an ordinal $\alpha$ such that $V_\alpha \models \sigma(\vec{x})$.) This is an extremely useful principle. One of its side effects is that ZFC is "self-justifying" in the sense that any finite fragment of ZFC is realized in a level $V_\alpha$ of the cumulative hierarchy. In other words, if one were to test set theory by examining a finite fragment of the axioms within the universe of sets, one would see that this finite fragment is not only consistent but that it has a model $V_\alpha$ that arises from the same iterative process that all sets do. In particular, ZFC comes very close to proving its own consistency even though we know this is not possible after Gödel. This feature makes ZFC very appealing as a foundational theory. (Note that PA has a similar self-justifying feature, but ETCS doesn't appear to have this.)

Another, more practical, use of replacement is to obtain "cheap universes". Grothendieck universes have proven useful for handling large objects. Unfortunately, one cannot prove their existence in ZFC. It is nevertheless often true that a "reasonable theorem" proven using Grothendieck universes is actually provable in ZFC. The reason is that the proof often doesn't make full use of all the features of Grothendieck universe, a finite fragment of those features often suffices and in such cases reflection provides a set $V_\alpha$ with all the necessary features to make the argument work. ETCS doesn't appear to have a good way of obtaining "cheap universes". This also hints at an alternative to replacement, which is to have a hierarchy of universes similar to those used in dependent type theory.

Operations on dependent families is where the need for replacement arises most. It's actually really hard to even talk about dependent families in the language of ETCS. The main issue with ETCS isn't necessarily that it can't prove the existence of coproducts like $\coprod_{n \in \mathbb{N}} \mathcal{P}^n(\mathbb{N})$, but that it has a hard time even talking about the family of all $\mathcal{P}^n(\mathbb{N})$ in the first place. Introducing universes would be an interesting way to get around that problem but there are other means, all of which are likely to make the need for replacement-like principles clear.

As for the proposed workaround, it's unclear you would get much more by this kind of process. Rather than ETCS, I'll work in BZC extended with terms for powersets and union and a constant symbol for $\omega$. The exponential-bounded formulas are defined like bounded formulas except that the bounding terms can involve powerset and union.

Fact. If $\phi(x,y)$ is an exponentially-bounded formula such that BZC proves that $\forall x \exists y \phi(x,y)$ then there is a standard number $n$ such that BZC proves that $\forall x \exists y(\phi(x,y) \land |y| \leq |\mathcal{P}^n(x \cup \omega)|)$.

Proof. Find a model $M$ of BZC and consider $x \in M$. Let $M' = \bigcup_n \{z \in M : |z| \leq |\mathcal{P}^n(x \cup \omega)|\}$ where $n$ ranges over the standard numbers only. Note that $M'$ is model of BZC that contains $x$. By hypothesis, there is a $y \in M'$ such that $M' \models \phi(x,y)$. Note that exponential-bounded formulas are absolute between $M'$ and $M$ since the only sets that we need to look at to figure out that $\phi(x,y)$ is true are in $M'$. Thus $M \models \phi(x,y)$ and also $M \models |y| \leq |\mathcal{P}^n(x \cup \omega)|$ by definition of $M'$. Now the fact that there is a fixed standard $n$ that provably works for all $x$ follows by a compactness argument. $\square$

The examples $\omega, \mathcal{P}(\omega), \mathcal{P}^2(\omega), \ldots$ and $V, V^{\ast}, V^{\ast\ast},\ldots$ are definable by a formula of the form $\exists z\phi(x,y,z)$ where $\phi(x,y,z)$ is exponential-bounded. Because of the nice biinterpretation between ETCS and BZC, for these and similar examples, either ETCS doesn't prove that the $n$-th iterate exists for every natural number $n$, or ETCS already proves that replacement holds in this particular instance.

Let me also address one aspect of the footnote, which states that replacement would be "the most likely culprit" if ZFC were found to be inconsistent. The "standard objection" to axiomatic set theory is actually with comprehension. If you think about it, comprehension is a rather bold statement: every formula in the language of set theory can be used to define a subset of a given set. The issue is that formulas can be complex beyond (human) understanding, it's hard to justify the use of comprehension for formulas we can't understand. In fact, it's not clear that comprehension is fully justified by the ontology of set theory described above. (Note that the same kind objection applies to PA, where one asks for induction to hold for arbitrary formulas.)

  • Of course unrestricted comprehension is what got Frege into trouble. But wouldn't you say that comprehension (to get subsets) is a technique that's universally employed in ordinary mathematics? – Monroe Eskew Jun 08 '15 at 10:41
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    I'm sorry, but this is not what I was asking about. Perhaps I wasn't clear, but it was a question about etcs and category theory, and not at all about ZF(C). – David Roberts Jun 08 '15 at 10:48
  • @MonroeEskew: Yes, I don't think the proponents of the "standard objection" would object to all uses of comprehension. I think most would accept comprehension for a class of "understandable" formulas large enough to capture whatever they think is used in ordinary mathematics. For example, Mac Lane proposed restricting comprehension to bounded formulas (though I don't recall whether the "standard objection" was part of his motivation). – François G. Dorais Jun 08 '15 at 10:52
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    @DavidRoberts: The typical use of replacement in category theory is what the third paragraph is about. The first two paragraphs are about how the idea of replacement came about in the first place. I didn't say anything about ETCS since replacement is not part of it. It's also really hard to formulate in the language of ETCS since it doesn't have a natural way to talk about dependent families. The hint about using universes is, of course, a very nice way to get around that issue. – François G. Dorais Jun 08 '15 at 11:01
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    I was trying to avoid stating personal opinions, but I guess they are only shallowly disguised... The two main objections I have with ETCS as a foundational theory are: (1) there is no clear guiding ontology to judge the validity of the axioms and (2) it doesn't appear to be self-justifying in the same manner as PA and ZFC. I could be wrong on both counts but I never found anything. Otherwise it's a pretty fine theory that works really well in practice. I'd be happier if it had dependent families similar to those in type theory but then the need for replacement would probably be obvious. – François G. Dorais Jun 08 '15 at 11:12
  • @DavidRoberts: I expanded the parenthetical note at the end of the third paragraph into a fourth paragraph to clarify the link with ETCS. – François G. Dorais Jun 08 '15 at 11:35
  • Replacement is also equivalent to the principle of transfinite recursion along arbitrary well-orders, which I explain in my blog post http://jdh.hamkins.org/transfinite-recursion-as-a-fundamental-principle-in-set-theory/, following up on ideas of Benjamin Rin. – Joel David Hamkins Jun 08 '15 at 12:18
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    And here is a post explaining a bit more about "cheap universes": http://mathoverflow.net/a/28913/1946. – Joel David Hamkins Jun 08 '15 at 12:24
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    Thanks for the link @Joel, I now wish I had thought of calling them "good-enough" rather than "cheap"... – François G. Dorais Jun 08 '15 at 12:54
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    "Ontology" is one of those words that confuses me in these discussions: I often wonder whether it's really the word one wants. Normally I think of ontology as a branch of philosophy that inquires into the nature and modes of being/existence. Whenever it is invoked in mathematics, it seems always to refer to foundational matters (perhaps that's to be expected), but it also suggests to me adherence to a Platonistic belief in the real existence of objects, as does the phrase "ontological commitment". But is this intended? Somehow I suspect that what's intended by use of this word is (continued).. – Todd Trimble Jun 08 '15 at 13:48
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    not that. Rather, when one says something like "ETCS has no clear ontology", it sounds more to me like saying there's no guiding intuition behind the axiom selection; that it's just a kind of mish-mash. Is that right? – Todd Trimble Jun 08 '15 at 13:50
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    @Todd: I use "ontology" in your first understanding, which does entail Platonistic view of mathematical objects. In my first paragraph, I explain how replacement is justified by this Platonist view of the universe of sets. In my comment above, it refers to my own view. Of course, some may not share this view, in which case that lacuna of ETCS is moot. I don't think the axioms are a mish-mash, they are well motivated by the success of topos theory, which is modeled after the structure of Set. But this is too indirect for me to serve as a theory of existence. – François G. Dorais Jun 08 '15 at 14:09
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    FWIW, I believe most people use "ontology" the way François does. If I am confronted with a set of axioms, even in a non-foundational context, usually the first question I have is, "What's an example of something that satisfies these axioms?" In ordinary mathematics, if you can't give any examples, that's usually a deal-breaker, unless you can give a compelling conjectural example. In foundations, of course, "giving an example" comes with Goedelian caveats, but I still want to see an example. If no example is forthcoming then I'll complain that the axioms have "no clear ontology." – Timothy Chow Jun 08 '15 at 14:47
  • Thanks François; that clarifies it for me somewhat. Insofar as I don't feel committed to Platonism, maybe an appeal to "ontology" just doesn't speak to me. Let me try to press a little further though. It sounds as if "ontology" is meant to try to drive toward "what sets really are" (modulo some caveats) which is subtly different from "what axioms do we posit on the universe of sets (and functions)". Both ZFC and ETCS would posit a class of sets we are happy to conceive of as existing (using that word more as a convenience than as Platonistic commitment), but material set theories (continued) – Todd Trimble Jun 08 '15 at 17:18
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    like ZFC without atoms would go further and try to say what the insides of sets, their elements, really are, as opposed to their being bags of featureless dots. So it sounds as if an appeal to ontology is, by its very nature, driving us in the direction of a material set theory. – Todd Trimble Jun 08 '15 at 17:23
  • Todd, in ZFC we don't care what sets really are any more or less than you do. What we do care about, however, is the hierarchical structure of the $\in$ relation on sets, and this is what ZFC is about as a theory. The sets themselves could be anything, as long as they exhibit the structure in which we are interested. Isn't this the same as your attitude? The difference in the theories isn't anything about structuralism, but rather about which structure it is that is under study. – Joel David Hamkins Jun 08 '15 at 18:14
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    @JoelDavidHamkins Yes, that is the same as my attitude. And yes, ZFC seems to be all about the recursive structure of the global elementhood relation $\in$, while ETCS really isn't about that. I'm still stuck though on this word "ontology", and frankly Timothy's comment doesn't help me here. Of course as a mathematician I am generally interested in examples or models of axioms (I'm not a straw man formalist!). But how does that mean ETCS has no clear ontology? Show me an example that models ZFC, and I'll show you an example that models ETCS. – Todd Trimble Jun 08 '15 at 18:40
  • @Todd: As a fellow "non-committed to Platonism", let me give my point of view of "ontology" here. I see it as somewhat of an internal ontology. Assuming that we work inside a model of $\sf ZFC$, then Replacement allows us to create the von Neumann hierarchy (which in categorical terms would be a filtration, if my memory serves me right). And this gives a good justification. Meaning if we assume Replacement then we have this nice breakdown of the universe in which we work; whereas not assuming replacement... well, that doesn't happen (or at least not as nicely and not internally, I suppose). – Asaf Karagila Jun 08 '15 at 18:42
  • @Todd: It's all about the generative process and not about materialism. For a concrete example of a structural theory, Coquand's Calculus of Inductive Constructions is a really nice constructive theory of existence. – François G. Dorais Jun 08 '15 at 18:49
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    Todd, I think that the view that François is describing is like this: in set theory, once you have the idea of building sets (out of something, or anything, or ultimately nothing even) and then allowing those sets to be members of other sets, then you are led inexorably to the idea of the cumulative universe, before even writing any axioms down. Then, if one writes down axioms for that situation, one is led fairly directly to ZFC. We seem to have a fairly robust pre-reflective idea of what the theory is supposed to be about. I view it as fundamentally similar to the situation in geometry. – Joel David Hamkins Jun 08 '15 at 18:50
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    @JoelDavidHamkins Sorry, these stupid 600-character limits hamper me from expressing myself as I want. When I said "what sets really are", I just meant that the ZFC axioms are trying to capture the intuition of the cumulative hierarchy (which is a picture of what sets are). As you know, ETCS is not primarily interested in the cumulative hierarchy as such. I think of it as more driven by pragmatic concerns: we would like to have a guarantee of enough sets to do mathematics, including limit and colimit constructions, power sets, and the natural numbers to do some baseline amount of recursion. – Todd Trimble Jun 08 '15 at 18:57
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    Thanks all, for having this discussion with me. So it seems "ontology" stands as a kind of rubric for recursive processes for the ability to create new sets from old (ultimately from nothing, if atoms aren't assumed). François said somewhere that one of his main mathematical complaints about ETCS is that it has a weak grasp of induction, and I think I can appreciate the idea that what traditional set theories (like ZFC) are are really highly elaborated studies in recursion. If this accords with what you guys are saying, I think I have a better idea of it now. – Todd Trimble Jun 08 '15 at 19:11
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    @Todd: Your conclusion is spot on for me! On the other hand, if you remove AC and wellpointedness from ETCS, you get a really nice theory of universal constructions, which turns out to be rather well studied and very fruitful... – François G. Dorais Jun 08 '15 at 19:14
  • @FrançoisG.Dorais aha, your fact and the comment after are getting closer to the sort of thing I'm looking for. Here's what I get from it: given a 'diagram' defined by some formula(s) (for instance the example in the post), if the diagram exists as an internal category, then the colimit of the 'diagram' exists, and is the colimit of the resulting internal diagram (indexed by the internal category). This also reflects (no pun intended) what Zhen Lin said in his comment on the question, relating the natural numbers in the category, and the external/meta natural numbers. – David Roberts Jun 09 '15 at 00:43
  • @David Yes, I was trying to cook up the right factoid for you all day. This is as close as I got with a short proof. Anyway, the bottom line is that you might as well assume that the colimit you want exists since the assumption you need to make for the workaround to work isn't much less. – François G. Dorais Jun 09 '15 at 01:10
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    Todd seems satisfied with the word "ontology" now, but I want to comment why we don't use something like "recursion" instead. The fundamental desire is still for a clear picture of the universe of things of interest. The typical way to get such a picture is to state some simple rules for creating new things and to say that we're interested in everything that emerges. That's where recursive processes come in. But the recursive processes are a means toward an end of describing everything there is. Hence, "ontology." – Timothy Chow Jun 09 '15 at 02:12
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    This is different from the "pragmatic" attitude that we don't care what really exists or where things come from; instead, our starting point is the assumption that mathematicians already know what kinds of mathematical activities they are interested in, and we are interested in finding axioms that provide adequate support for continuing such activities. – Timothy Chow Jun 09 '15 at 02:15
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    @Timothy: It's not obvious to me why ZFC would be considered superior to ETCS in the regard you just described; instead, it sounds more like a suggestion that people really ought to be more interested in studying free toposes or somesuch. –  Jun 09 '15 at 02:41
  • I don't understand your argument for the "Fact." Why can't we use a formula to define a function $F$ mapping $m$ to $\mathcal P^m(\omega)$ for $m \in \omega$ and $0$ otherwise? There is no fixed $n$ such that $F(m) \leq | \mathcal P^n(m \cup \omega) |$ for all $m \in \omega$. – Monroe Eskew Jun 09 '15 at 08:24
  • @MonroeEskew BZC doesn't prove that this is a total function. – François G. Dorais Jun 09 '15 at 09:42
  • But is it not the case that for each $n$, there exists a proof in BZC of the existence of $\mathcal P^n(\omega)$? So we may let $F(n) = \mathcal P^n(\omega)$ if it exists and 0 otherwise. If BZC proved $\forall x |F(x)| \leq |\mathcal P^{147}(\omega)|$, then BZC could not prove the existence of $\mathcal P^{148}(\omega)$. In any case, I don't understand your use of compactness here so maybe you could explain what you mean. Sorry if my complaints are dumb. – Monroe Eskew Jun 09 '15 at 10:14
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    For every standard $n$ there is a proof that $\mathcal{P}^n(\omega)$ exists. The compactness argument is as follows. Add a fresh constant $a$ and consider the theory BZC + ${\forall y \phi(a,y) \to |y| > |\mathcal{P}^n(a \cup \omega)| : n = 0,1,2,\ldots}$. In a model of this theory, there can be no standard $n$ such that $\exists y(\phi(a,y) \land |y| \leq |\mathcal{P}^n(a \cup \omega)|)$ holds. Therefore the theory is inconsistent, which gives the required $n$. – François G. Dorais Jun 09 '15 at 10:25
  • @Hurkyl: If you are pragmatically interested in modeling the activities of foundational mathematicians, then maybe I agree with you. But if you don't want to take for granted that mathematicians are engaged in well-founded activity and want to convince yourself "from scratch" that some set of foundational axioms is non-vacuous, then I think you'll likely be led to recursive rules for building a universe. To put it another way, a category-theoretic approach is fine if you don't suffer from any ontological hangups; but if you do, then I don't think a category-theoretic approach will cure them. – Timothy Chow Jun 09 '15 at 14:45
  • @Timothy: The point I wanted to make, though, is that you're kind of shifting the goalposts. When "ontology" means an "iterated hierarchy where each floor justifies the floors below it", I can agree that ZFC has a much stronger ontology. But when "ontology" means "describe everything there is", ETCS's ontology appears to me to be just as good; in fact, IMO it's even made plainer than ZFC, and this is the aspect I had taken your comment to be criticizing. –  Jun 09 '15 at 17:45
  • @Hurkyl : It's not just "describe everything there is" but "explain where everything comes from." Does that make sense? – Timothy Chow Jun 09 '15 at 22:40
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    I think I'm starting to understand why (material) set theorists view ETCS as such a frustrating system: given an arbitrary object in an ETCS category (i.e. "the" category of sets), there's no way to say "it's built like this from simpler constituents". I guess my best answer to that (though a weak one) would be that most 'ordinary mathematicians' don't use arbitrary sets, any more than they have for hundreds of years. Everything generally sits in $P^5(\mathbb{N})$ or so (that should be enough for PDEs and analysis, which I'm told is half of mathematics, more than enough for number theory etc) – David Roberts Jun 09 '15 at 23:08
  • ...and given the fact set theory of any flavour is notorious at actually pinning down how arbitrary sets behave (unless one is a strong Platonist), I'm not phased that as one gets higher and higher in cardinality it gets a bit fuzzy. Since, as Todd pointed out, ZFC is about the study of tree-like structures which model $\in$, it allows one to say intelligent things about highly-structured and very large infinite sets. Whether such very large sets naturally come with such structure is I feel the key point of difference between the intuition of a ZFC-theorist, and a ETCS-theorist. – David Roberts Jun 09 '15 at 23:14
  • @Timothy: Not really. What is an answer to "where does this thing come from?" The way I interpret the question, a suitable answer would be an algebraic construction (i.e. a construction that could be built out of things like pullbacks and exponentials) of that thing starting from some inputs (e.g. $\mathbb{N}$ or $\Omega$). –  Jun 09 '15 at 23:20
  • A category theorist might instead like to say that such-and-such category or functor has such-and-such properties, rather than 'this cardinal has this rich structure'. See, for instance, the recent work relating Shelah's AECs and accessible categories (the latter a pure Grothendieckian invention, later used by him to study homotopy theory). – David Roberts Jun 09 '15 at 23:21
  • @Hurkyl since one cannot, from the abstract topos definition, construct $\beth_\omega$ (though it is consistent it exists), the 'top end' of what an ETCS category looks like is a bit fuzzy. This is a lot lower than where it happens for ZFC. I don't know how, given an arbitrary set in ETCS+R, to show it is a subset of some transfinite iterated construction (aside from maybe going via ZFC). – David Roberts Jun 09 '15 at 23:25
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    The nice metaphor "ordinal clock" in this answer should be complemented with John Baez' nice June 2016 exposition of the ordinals up to $\varepsilon_0$. Specifically, if you only read a little of it, then have a look at the 'clock-like' illustration immediately before the section 'Ordinals up to $\varepsilon_0$, and David Madore's masterful applet immediately before. – Peter Heinig Sep 19 '17 at 15:17
  • You are being a bit too quick with that defense of replacement. Nothing about being 'exhaustive' demands that you can't have a definable function that sends a set to a cofinal sequence. Given a $V_\alpha \models ZFC$ I can have a $\beta > \alpha$ with $V_\beta$ failing replacement. If exhaustive means captures all the true platonic sets how do you know the true platonic sets aren't really like $V_\beta$ and insisting on replacement prevents V from being exhaustive? – Peter Gerdes Jul 12 '19 at 13:30
  • More generally,all the reasons you might have for taking set theory to be exhaustive are reasons to think you take it to be fundamental can't step outside of it and talk about the ordinals being indexed by some set if that indexing isn't a set. All you need is powerset to guarantee there is no set function indexing the ordinals. If you are content to step out of set theory to apply the reasoning you use then, even if one can make sense of the notion, why assume it's exhaustive?

    How about we just say it's useful in set theory and there is strong evidence it's not inconsistent so why not?

    – Peter Gerdes Jul 12 '19 at 13:36
  • @PeterGerdes: I don't think having anything outside $V$ makes sense for the ontology of sets, but if you believe there can be set-like things outside of $V$ then it's tough to argue that $V$ is exhaustive. – François G. Dorais Jul 12 '19 at 15:15
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    Yes I agree but if you can’t step outside V what sense does it make to think of things given by the formulas in replacement as functions? If a function is a set in V then the failure of replacement isn’t really showing that one can create a cofinal map into the ordinals. I’m suggesting that the only reason this intuition sounds good is that you implicitly stepped outside of V and imagined looking at it from outside and that’s not allowed. – Peter Gerdes Jul 22 '19 at 09:18
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The real reason for the importance of replacement is not the fact that it proves the existence of large sets, but that it is a kind of global implementation-insensitivity principle. Suppose i have a kind of abstract mathematical entity that arises from equivalence classes for an equivalence relation. (Think: cardinals, ordinals). There are various ways of implementing such objects in set theory, but in all such cases one has a classifier, which is a function that sends two things to the same value iff they are equivalent in the relevant sense. A classifer for cardinality sends two things to the same thing iff they are in bijection with each other. The values are the implementations of (in this case) cardinals. Clearly if i have two classifiers (for cardinals, to persist with this example) then i get two implementations of cardinals, and they will of course be isomorphic. So certainly they give rise to the same first-order theory. That is of course what we want: it shouldn't matter what implementation we use. But what about the second order theory? If we want to show that the isomorphism lifts to sets of cardinals, then we need replacement. There is a rather cute illustration of this phenomenon due to Adrian Mathias. Suppose you want to ensure that $X \times Y$ exists whatever your pairing/unpairing kit is, then you have to assume replacement. the assumptions are equicalent

  • that's interesting about Mathias' example, I wouldn't have expected that. In ETCS, one posits the existence of binary products of sets, and doesn't have Replacement, so something must be going on with the other assumptions. Do you know what they are? – David Roberts Jun 09 '15 at 08:06
  • To bring things back to Mathias' result, over what axioms did he prove the equivalence of products and Replacement. ETCS is perhaps a discussion for elsewhere (I'm happy to continue, but here's not the place) – David Roberts Jun 09 '15 at 09:06
  • Mathias shows that this scheme (cartesiuan products exist for any definable pairing) s equivalent over Zermelo set theory to the Replacement scheme. – Adam Epstein Jun 09 '15 at 09:15
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    @Thomas, Adam: Can you please provide a reference for the equivalence established by Mathias? – Ali Enayat Jun 09 '15 at 09:28
  • Is ETCS an elementary theory of sets suitable for doing category theory? My guess would be that such theories have an undefined primitive notion of pairing. It would be the natural thing to do. – Thomas Forster Jun 09 '15 at 08:39
  • It's an elementary theory of sets suitable for mathematics that doesn't use Replacement (ie most of it). It doesn't have a notion of pairing. – David Roberts Jun 09 '15 at 08:43
  • Thanks for discussing this, Thomas (or is it Tom?), but may I gently point out the add comment link. Currently you are adding new answers each time. I've alerted a moderator so they can use superpowers to fix it up. – David Roberts Jun 09 '15 at 09:04
  • Then it sounds as if users of ETCS need to be explicit about the kind of pair they use. – Thomas Forster Jun 09 '15 at 08:55
  • @DavidRoberts Of course ETCS has a notion of pairing. It's built right into the definition of binary product! – Zhen Lin Jun 09 '15 at 09:47
  • @ZhenLin, but not in the sense that material set theory does: "Given two sets, there is a set whose members are exactly the two given sets." – David Roberts Jun 09 '15 at 09:51
  • @Ali I don't think it exists as much more than a comment, but I fleshed it out as an undergraduate exercise. I can send you that if you like. – Adam Epstein Jun 09 '15 at 10:19
  • @DavidRoberts That's not what Thomas means. He is referring to pairing in the sense of ordered pairs. – Zhen Lin Jun 09 '15 at 10:42
  • @ZhenLin then I retract my statements! – David Roberts Jun 09 '15 at 11:40
  • @Adam I'd like to see it too, but then so might a lot of people. Perhaps it can be added to the answer, if it's not too long? – David Roberts Jun 09 '15 at 11:41
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    Isn’t the proof obvious, actually? If $F$ is a definable function, define a pairing function $(x,y)_F$ so that $(x,y)_F=((x,y),F(x))$, where $(x,y)$ is the standard pairing. Then $F[X]$ can be defined by bounded separation and union from $X\times_F{0}$. – Emil Jeřábek Jun 09 '15 at 11:52
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    Thomas, the result about pairs is awesome. Even more since a couple years back I realized (when writing some answer on Math.SE) that really formalizing things in set theory we write "proof schema" where "ordered pair" or "function" are really just placeholders for definitions that work, and the proof is essentially the same proof. I never thought that this intuitive understanding is in fact the full fledged power of the Replacement schema. And that's pretty awesome! – Asaf Karagila Jun 09 '15 at 15:58
  • Adam has emailed me his sketch proof, and I think it would be good to clarify the result of Mathias that Thomas pointed out. It is not so much that to define $X\times Y$, one needs Replacement for any given definition of ordered pair, but that Replacement is iff all possible ways of encoding ordered pairs give rise to a suitable cartesian product (and the base theory is Zermelo set theory). – David Roberts Jun 09 '15 at 23:03
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    Jerabek is absolutely right; that is Mathias' proof. However i fear that the cuteness of Mathias' factoid is distracting attention from the generality of the message, namely that replacement is purely and simply a global principle of implementation-insensitivity. It has a set-theoretic form, but its true meaning lies outside set theory – Thomas Forster Jun 10 '15 at 09:56
  • @ThomasForster: Since $Pairing$ is derivable in $ZF$ and $ZFC$ from $Empty$ $Set$, $Powerset$, and $Replacement$, and the existence of the cartesian product of sets is therefore derivable from these axioms, can it be said that $Replacement$ is therefore necessary for ensuring that $Set_{ZF}$ and $Set_{ZFC}$ are cartesian closed categories (and since ETCS is a fragment of ZFC, can it be said that $Replacement$ is necessary for ensuring that ETCS is cartesian closed as well)? (Note: to treat "Every set has a product" as an axiom is to trivialize the 'non-essentialness' of $Replacement$ – Thomas Benjamin Jul 02 '15 at 07:15
  • (cont.) since one can deem any statement an axiom if one wishes.) – Thomas Benjamin Jul 02 '15 at 07:17
  • Actually, since ETCS+"Leinster's version of Relacement" has the same theorems as $ZFC$, one should be able to derive the ETCS axiom "Every set has a product" from ETCS-"Every set has a product"+"Leinster's version of Replacement" so in essence, "Leinster's version of Replacement" is needed to insure that ETCS-"Every set has a product" is cartesion closed as well. – Thomas Benjamin Jul 02 '15 at 07:51
5

Here's an example of a published, nontrivial use of the the product of the sequence $\{ V, V^{*}, V^{**}, \ldots \}$ in a functional analysis paper, for the specific case of $V = \mathbb{R}^{\mathbb{N}}$ (where $*$ means algebraic dual). If we could form this product, we could also form the vector space colimit of $V \rightarrow V^{**} \rightarrow V^{****} \rightarrow \cdots$ using only separation (because the coproduct vector space is a sub-vector space of the product).

It occurs in Section 5 of Kōmura's Some Examples on Linear Topological Vector Spaces (Math. Annalen 153, pp. 150–162 (1964)), while giving an example of a Montel space $E$ that is not complete (with respect to the usual uniformity on a locally convex space implied by its topology). By its construction, $E$ is also an example of an incomplete reflexive nuclear space. I won't repeat the construction here as it involves many details, but $E$ is a dense (linear and topological) subspace of $$ \prod_{n=0}^\infty (\mathbb{R}^{\mathbb{N}})^{*^n}. $$ In fact Kōmura actually uses $\mathbb{R}^{\beth_n}$ instead of $(\mathbb{R}^{\mathbb{N}})^{*^n}$, but these are well known to be isomorphic (Erdős-Kaplansky).

Unfortunately I do not know if this is "essential". That is to say, I don't know if anybody has found a continuum-sized example, and I strongly suspect that nobody has shown that this fact implies any non-trivial instances of the axiom of replacement.

2

In this context, I believe, it is relevant to mention the setup of algebraic set theory. One of the key axioms for classes of small maps is that of quotient (if $fg$ is small and $g$ is (regular, effective...) epi then $f$ is small); this axiom is recognized as being a form of replacement.

Without this axiom, for example, it is problematic to define the covariant small powerset functor on the ambient pretopos of classes.