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Gödelian incompleteness seems to ruin the idea of mathematics offering absolute certainty and objectivity. But Gödel‘s proof gives examples of independent statements that are often remarked as having a character that is too metamathematical. Other methods, such as Cohen’s forcing, are able to produce examples of independent statements that look more “ordinary.” However, the axiom $V=L$, when added to ZFC, settles “nearly all” mathematical questions. Furthermore, it can be motivated by constructivist philosophy. Here is Gödel (1938) introducing his theorem on the relative consistency of AC and GCH with ZF:

This model, roughly speaking, consists of all "mathematically constructible" sets, where the term "constructible" is to be understood in the semiintuitionistic sense which excludes impredicative procedures. This means "constructible" sets are defined to be those sets which can be obtained by Russell's ramified hierarchy of types, if extended to include transfinite orders. The extension to transfinite orders has the consequence that the model satisfies the impredicative axioms of set theory, because an axiom of reducibility can be proved for sufficiently high orders. Furthermore, the proposition "Every set is constructible" (which I abbreviate by "A") can be proved to be consistent with the axioms of [ZF], because A turns out to be true for the model consisting of the constructible sets.... The proposition A added as a new axiom seems to give a natural completion of the axioms of set theory, in so far as it determines the vague notion of an arbitrary infinite set in a definite way.

We note that Gödel later rejected this philosophical viewpoint. We also note that later developments on the structure of $L$, especially those due to Jensen, gave a wealth of powerful combinatorial principles that follow from the axiom $V=L$.

Question: Given the effectiveness of the axiom $V=L$ at settling mathematical questions, and the fact that it can be motivated by constructivist views that are still widely held today, why hasn’t there been historically a stronger push to adopt it as a foundational axiom for mathematics?

YCor
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Monroe Eskew
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    Forcing axioms? Large cardinals? – Asaf Karagila May 19 '19 at 21:57
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    I've always gotten the impression that $V=L$ is too restrictive for me to want to live in that universe, akin to working in a topos where all functions on the reals are continuous or something like this -- nice as a toy model for the real mathematical universe and some interesting things can be said, but not actually where mathematics takes place since it knocks out large cardinals that I find interesting etc. (https://mathoverflow.net/questions/190614/strongest-large-cardinal-axiom-compatible-with-v-l). – Alec Rhea May 19 '19 at 22:05
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    A cynical viewpoint: It's "effective" in settling questions. But mathematicians would rather have open problems (gives them busy work). – MyNinthAccount May 19 '19 at 22:37
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    What does it mean to "adopt" $V=L$? Does it mean that all research into alternative theories (with large cardinals, determinacy, etc.) should be halted, and papers about such research no longer be published? Otherwise, if people are going to continue investigating consequence both of $V=L$ and its alternatives, how is that different from the present situation? – bof May 19 '19 at 22:41
  • @bof I mean that mainstream mathematics journals would accept a proof that uses the axiom just as much as any other proof. One could still study alternative theories of course, but this would be considered akin to studying models where AC fails. – Monroe Eskew May 19 '19 at 22:44
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    Does anyone know of a journal rejecting a proof on the grounds that it assumed $V = L$? – Andrej Bauer May 19 '19 at 22:54
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    @AndrejBauer Well does anyone know of a paper that used the axiom without claiming the theorem as conditional? – Monroe Eskew May 19 '19 at 22:58
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    A perhaps less contentious way of phrasing the question would be to ask why $V=L$ does not have the same epistemological status in ordinary mathematical practice as the axiom of choice (see here and here for parallels between the two). – Gro-Tsen May 19 '19 at 23:04
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    I know of a paper in theoretical computer science which got accepted and it uses Martin's axiom: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1211.1511v2.pdf – Andrej Bauer May 19 '19 at 23:09
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    There's not much point arguing for $ZFC+V=L$ over $ZFC$ if you prefer $PA^3$ to either. That preference is better called predicativist than contructivist, and it is @NikWeaver's position as I understand it. –  May 20 '19 at 01:19
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    @AndrejBauer Yes, but right there in the abstract it states "The proof is carried out in ZFC set theory extended with Martin’s Axiom at an uncountable cardinal." So there's no pretension on the part of the authors to treat Martin's Axiom equally to the other axioms of ZFC (e.g. no general math or cs paper that I'm aware of in the last 60 years has opened with "we will use the axiom(s) of separation"). I think the OP is talking about a paper which used V=L without disclosing it. Certainly if I were refereeing I would demand that they do so .. – Noah Schweber May 20 '19 at 03:35
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    @NoahSchweber: Sure, I just wanted to give an example of a paper using a non-standard axiom of set theory, outside the area of set theory. Such paper seem to be few and far between. – Andrej Bauer May 20 '19 at 06:02
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    From time to time people argue we should “believe” or “adopt” as an axiom the statement “$V = L$”; my own inclination is strongly against this. This universe looks like a very special thin and uncharacteristic case, and adopting it would kill many interesting theorems; we shall return to this issue below. In any case, I do not think anybody takes it seriously. In spite of some rumors to the contrary, Jensen flatly does not “believe” in $V = L$ (though it would certainly be to his personal advantage) but he thinks a proof under $V = L$ is significantly better than a consistency result. – Mohammad Golshani May 20 '19 at 08:26
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    @Andrej Many papers in general topology are like that. There are also quite a few (current) examples in real analysis, group theory, model theory, etc. – Andrés E. Caicedo May 20 '19 at 11:03
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    @AndrésE.Caicedo: good point, thanks for bringing those up. – Andrej Bauer May 20 '19 at 11:11
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    One axiom that goes beyond ZFC but is often assumed without explicit mention in papers is the axiom of universes / a proper class of inaccessibles. – Alex Kruckman May 20 '19 at 13:18
  • @AlexKruckman Or the existence of saturated models. Although in each case I think that's rude. – Noah Schweber May 23 '19 at 11:47
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    "why hasn’t there been historically a stronger push to adopt it as a foundational axiom for mathematics?" Because leveraging the slimness of $L$ (along with it's version of the reflection theorem) to prove results by establishing any instance of reflection of the failure leads to a contradiction; is not a particularly natural way of proving results. My favorite example is the construction of a Kurepa tree without an A-subtree using $\Pi^1_2$-reflection below $\omega_1$ – Not Mike Jun 03 '19 at 11:02
  • @NotMike That’s a rather specific aesthetic. – Monroe Eskew Jun 03 '19 at 15:21

8 Answers8

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Let me add to the existing answers a point which may seem "vulgar" at first, but I think is actually important:

V=L is complicated.

And whether or not this ought to be a reason to not raise it to ZFC-esque status - I think it is, and see below - I think it's clear that it is in practice going to be an issue with any such attempt (and V=L isn't alone in this ...).

The ZFC axioms may be difficult to work with, but they're ultimately not that hard to understand. Union, Powerset, Pairing, and Extensionality are obvious; Separation is just restricted comprehension; Replacement is "transfinite recursion," which isn't really that alien; and Choice both has "obvious enough" forms and is sufficiently famous that general mathematicians are at least familiar with it in the abstract. Foundation poses a bit of an issue, but not because it's complicated, but rather because it often seems pointless; and that's fine since it really plays no essential role in general mathematics since we can "implement" everything within the hereditarily well-founded sets.

V=L, by contrast, is genuinely complicated. The slogan "only things you can construct exist" is snappy enough, but hides a ton of subtlety and is easy to use incorrectly: for example, can you construct the sets required for the Banach-Tarski paradox? (I've actually seen it claimed, by a competent non-set-theorist, that V=L prevents Banach-Tarski - by virtue of implying that every set of reals is Borel.)

And there are even deeper issues. For one thing, it's not even clear that V=L is actually first-order expressible! Similarly, the manner in which it resolves concrete questions actually requires some direct handling of logic. It takes a very little time to get a basic competency with ZFC; it takes some serious effort to achieve the same for V=L.

This winds up pushing back against "common readability" - the idea that mathematicians should be generally able to read a paper in their own field without having to be competent in an unrelated field. Of course even ignoring logic this frequently fails, but giving V=L the same status as the ZFC axioms would essentially endorse its fairly global failure.


In a bit more detail:

At the end of the day this gets to a question about what the purpose of foundations of mathematics is. I take a very "profane" approach: the point is to facilitate mathematics. Adding axioms in order to solve questions is fundamentally a cheat, especially when those candidate axioms are fundamentally technical.

I think that in order to be a good candidate axiom, a principle needs to be motivated by non-foundational ideas; and this requires more than just demonstrating its power outside of logic.

Of course one can argue about the extent to which the original ZFC axioms satisfy this point, and in my opinion it would be incredibly dishonest to pretend that ZFC is the "a priori correct" foundational theory rather than historically contingent, but going forwards I think that the above is important. I see no way in which V=L meets this criterion.

Note that this criterion also pushes against (large) large cardinals, forcing axioms, etc. And indeed I take the "profane" view of foundations to what I believe is a rather unpopular extreme:

I think that even if we go full Platonist, and even if we're fully convinced after deep technical work that a given principle is true of the universe of sets, that's not enough to add it as an axiom to ZFC.

(I'm not claiming this matches the actual history of ZFC at all, by the way!)

Noah Schweber
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  • The existence of non-Borel subsets of the space of reals is a theorem of ZFC. – YCor May 20 '19 at 04:14
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    @YCor Yes, I know - the point was that the speaker didn't (or more reasonably didn't think about it and temporarily forgot that new axioms can't rule out old theorems), and interpreted "every set is constructible" as ruling them out. The point I was making was that the naive justification for V=L is actually quite dangerous as an explanation - because the notion of constructibility here is actually subtle and technical, the slogan "every set is constructible" is really not useful. – Noah Schweber May 20 '19 at 04:27
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    I have several problems with this answer. Let me just go in order. (1) Is it really that complicated? Once you know what ordinals are and what the satisfaction relation is, you have a definition of $L$. Then you just say “everything can be constructed by that procedure,” or “$\forall x \exists \alpha (x \in L_\alpha)$”. – Monroe Eskew May 20 '19 at 06:15
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    (2) Why is it a problem that it takes some knowledge of logic to understand what the axiom says and how to apply it? This should be considered a good thing by increasing connections between different areas. – Monroe Eskew May 20 '19 at 06:17
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    (3) How is it “cheating” to resolve questions with new axioms, if those questions are independent of the old axioms? The only way to solve them is with new assumptions, so we had better find assumptions that are well-motivated or else give up on solving them at all. – Monroe Eskew May 20 '19 at 06:18
  • (4) What do you mean by a principle needs to be motivated by non-foundational ideas beyond applications? – Monroe Eskew May 20 '19 at 06:20
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    @MonroeEskew First of all, note that - per the beginning - most of my answer is descriptive rather than prescriptive. I do separately happen to actually support these (per the end of the answer) but that's a separate point. Re: (1), I think you underestimate how complicated that is for someone with no logic background. I'm basing this off of numerous conversations I've had with such mathematicians. Re: (2), I honestly find that quite distasteful - I really think that one of the key criteria of a foundational theory is that it be maximally accessible. (cont'd) – Noah Schweber May 20 '19 at 06:42
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    (And to be honest, I do have sympathy for the criticism of ZFC that it's already too messy in terms of implementing arguments.) Basically, I think the threshold for understanding what a "community-valid proof" is should be as small as possible; I don't really see "lots of natural problems are undecidable" as an overriding concern, since that's always going to happen per Godel (and if we adopt a "sufficiently dynamic" approach to foundations, developing our base theory over time, there will be occasions where we have to walk everything back as we discover an inconsistency in old commitments; – Noah Schweber May 20 '19 at 06:50
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    now of course that latter one won't happen with V=L, but it's a criticism of the broader project of changing foundations in general. Meanwhile, just saying that a candidate axiom resolves problems doesn't say anything about whether it resolves them "correctly," and I don't see why resolving lots of problems is any better. "Facilitating mathematics" is different from "making more problems solvable" - it's about clarifying existing mathematical practice, and this is an important point if only from a pragmatic perspective (what is blocking adoption of V=L - whether or not that would be good). – Noah Schweber May 20 '19 at 06:58
  • I have to run but I'll respond more later. – Noah Schweber May 20 '19 at 06:59
  • @NoahSchweber My impression is that most mathematicians dislike independence and have constructivist sympathies. So why aren’t they motivated to use this axiom- wouldn’t it facilitate mathematics from their point of view? – Monroe Eskew May 20 '19 at 07:40
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    @MonroeEskew Concerning "once you know what the ordinals are and what the satisfaction relation is": The problem is that a lot of mathematicians don't know and don't want to find out what the satisfaction relation is. As far as I know, that's why Gödel circumvented satisfaction in his book by defining $L$ in terms of what are now called the Gödel operations. Those seem to be just an ugly way of disguising satisfaction to not look like logic. – Andreas Blass May 20 '19 at 12:37
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    "Replacement is transfinite recursion which isn't really that alien." Can't we be a lot more down to earth than that? Replacement is set-builder notation. Non-set theorists use set-builder notation in two ways: ${x\in S|P(x)}$ and ${f(x)|x\in S}$. The axiom that guarantees the existence of a set of the first form is separation. The axiom that guarantees the existence of the second form is replacement. This seems like a much less alien justification than an appeal to only somewhat alien transfinite recursion. – ziggurism May 20 '19 at 13:00
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    Hear hear! I'm very glad to see an argument against V=L articulated that doesn't rest on large cardinals. I think this point of view can also support the position (which is essentially my view) that a proper class of inaccessibles, in the guise of universes, if you like, could be added to ZFC, while stronger large cardinals should not be. – Alex Kruckman May 20 '19 at 13:14
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    "in my opinion it would be incredibly dishonest to pretend that ZFC is historically contingent rather than the "a priori correct" foundational theory" - did you mean to switch these? – Qiaochu Yuan May 21 '19 at 22:10
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    @QiaochuYuan Oh crud, of course you're right - fixed! – Noah Schweber May 22 '19 at 01:28
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    @Alex The point is not the large cardinals themselves but their consequences. Particularly, generic absoluteness. – Andrés E. Caicedo May 22 '19 at 02:01
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    @AndrésE.Caicedo I agree, and I think it's very interesting to study their consequences and consistency strengths as a question of mathematics. This doesn't change my view about foundations. – Alex Kruckman May 22 '19 at 17:35
  • @NoahSchweber I still don’t grasp what you mean by an axiom being “motivated by non-foundational ideas.” Can you give an example? – Monroe Eskew May 22 '19 at 22:13
  • This is a reason why it was never adopted, but is not a good reason for it to not be adopted. To me, ZFC without V=L is a bit like PA minus the induction schema. Induction is far more complicated than the other PA axioms; but is required to say what natural numbers there aren't. You have to expect that lots of independence results will creep up if you are never willing to say, oh, by the way, that's all the sets there are. V=L allows the word "set" to be more well-defined. Mathematicians are never content to let ill-defined terms remain ill-defined. (Obviously I'm a supporter of V=L.) – Jesse Elliott Jul 11 '19 at 05:55
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    @JesseElliott I disagree with every part of that comment. First of all, I think the analogy with induction is fundamentally wrong: it assumes that set theory has a "minimizing" intuition, analogous to the natural numbers, but that already is a huge point of contention - see e.g. Maddy's writing on maximization as a motivating idea. "V=L allows the word "set" to be more well-defined. Mathematicians are never content to let ill-defined terms remain ill-defined." But does it give a good definition? Sharper definitions aren't necessarily better if they're sharp in the wrong direction. (cont'd) – Noah Schweber Jul 11 '19 at 19:32
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    Similarly, "You have to expect that lots of independence results will creep up if you are never willing to say, oh, by the way, that's all the sets there are" isn't a justification for anything either - resolving questions isn't helpful if you resolve them in the wrong way. – Noah Schweber Jul 11 '19 at 19:33
  • There's no question that ZFC+V=L says more about what sets are than ZFC alone does, and resolves many more problems as well. However, neither of these facts is inherently a good thing about it. In order to interpret them as positives we have to lean in a pragmatic direction, but at that point V=L's pragmatic drawbacks also become relevant. Basically, the only stance I see that makes this a convincing argument for V=L is that what we really care about is simply resolving questions from decently plausible axioms without raising consistency strength. (cont'd) – Noah Schweber Jul 11 '19 at 19:41
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    But I think this isn't actually a common stance; usually we lean more idealist ("there is some underlying reality we're trying to understand, so it's not helpful to answer questions if you answer them in the wrong way") or pragmatic ("OK fine it does answer lots of questions, but it's also really weird"), and either direction weakens that case for V=L immensely. – Noah Schweber Jul 11 '19 at 19:43
  • I've read Maddy's books and disagree with MAXIMIZE as a principle. I'm writing a book in support of V=L, currently 180 pages, and far too long to fit in these margins. :) In the book I address Maddy's arguments against V=L. – Jesse Elliott Jul 12 '19 at 21:22
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    @JesseElliott I'd definitely like to read it when it comes out! But I think that this is a place where we'll have to agree to disagree. Ignoring for a moment the precise details of how Maddy and others interpret "maximize" - in response to your "Mathematicians are never content to let ill-defined terms remain ill-defined," I think there's a crucial distinction between object and universe here. We (or at least, I) certainly do demand a precise pinning-down of $\mathbb{R}$ as an object of study; on the other hand, I'm vehemently against rules which limit the additional objects we can create. – Noah Schweber Jul 12 '19 at 22:12
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    Take the concept "number" (in my opinion vastly epistomologically prior to "set"). I'd say that a key aspect of the development of modern (considered broadly) mathematics was the rejection by the mathematical community of attempts to delineate that concept. And, yet again, even if we assume dissatisfaction with the ZFC state of affairs, why is V=L the right way to sharpen the picture? – Noah Schweber Jul 12 '19 at 22:21
  • Why were the axioms of choice and foundation the "right" way to sharpen the picture? They are "limiting" in the same sense that V=L is limiting (although I think of it as saying that the class of ordinals is huge, not that the there are fewer sets). I think if you accept both, then it's not much of a far cry to accept V=L. This is a much bigger issue than can be discussed in the confines of this comment section. If you'd like to continue the discussion I would most certainly invite you to email me. – Jesse Elliott Jul 13 '19 at 07:03
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    @JesseElliott Definitely; but let me wrap up here by mostly agreeing with your most recent comment - personally, I don't find foundation and choice compelling at all. That said, I do think they're quite far from V=L in this regard. – Noah Schweber Jul 13 '19 at 16:53
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    I just want to remark that V=L implies that all sets are Borel, and thus Banach–Tarski fails. See, assume $0^#$, then there are only countable sets in L... – Asaf Karagila Aug 06 '20 at 08:53
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Let me adopt a somewhat contrarian view, and slightly overstate it for the sake of clarity:

The historical window for adopting new "foundational axioms" has closed. V = L, and any other axiom you might propose today, has missed the boat. It's too late.

I'd argue that the last time an axiom gained "foundational status" was when the axiom of choice made the cut, and that was roughly a hundred years ago. The general attitude today, I submit, is pluralistic. If you're interested in an axiom, then by all means, go ahead and investigate its consequences. But since we understand today that the status of axioms such as V = L is never going to be settled in the way that mathematicians are accustomed to "settling" open problems in mathematics, and since there is such a plethora of axioms to choose from, the tendency is to live and let live.

This state of affairs is reinforced by the fact that set-theoretic axioms such as V = L are not (or at least seem not to be) visibly relevant to the sorts of questions that most mathematicians are interested in. So there's less motivation for people to take a partisan stance on such questions, unless they've "drunk the foundation Kool-Aid" and start to care a lot about foundational questions. Among Kool-Aid drinkers you can have a debate (about whether V = L violates the "maximize" principle, or whether, as Shelah says, it seems to be a permanent resident lacking citizenship), but it's going to be regarded as a side-show by the general mathematical community, which by and large no longer sees the point in taking a strong stance on questions like this.

Timothy Chow
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    I think that the axiom of choice made the cut prior to replacement and regularity. Both of which are arguably foundational axioms just as much as they are set theoretic axioms. – Asaf Karagila May 20 '19 at 13:59
  • I have to say, I still don't understand why. The Whitehead problem was considered important. If history had turned out differently and it had been announced that Shelah had solved it by using deep structural facts about sets, rather than that Shelah showed it to be independent of the axioms, then maybe people would have said, "Hmm so those set theorists figured out something useful after all!" It seems that the decision not to promote V=L was made by set theorists during the time when foundations were very unclear. – Monroe Eskew May 20 '19 at 15:24
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    @MonroeEskew "It seems that the decision not to promote V=L was made by set theorists during the time when foundations were very unclear." I think there's a separate, and very interesting, question about the history of attempts on the logicians' side to argue for new axioms. But that's different from acceptance by the mathematical community. – Noah Schweber May 22 '19 at 01:39
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    @AsafKaragila : Regularity is sort of irrelevant to mathematics, but replacement is an interesting case. It makes me think that an axiom is much more likely to gain foundational status if mathematicians use it "unconsciously"; i.e., assuming it tacitly without fully realizing that they're invoking an "extra" assumption. If that is true, then V=L is at a disadvantage because it's not the sort of thing that anyone is going to use unconsciously. – Timothy Chow May 26 '19 at 16:18
  • Is an axiom true because the majority of mathematicians believe it? What makes an axiom true? – Jesse Elliott Jul 11 '19 at 05:59
  • @JesseElliott : That's an interesting (and of course controversial!) question, but one does not necessarily need to answer it to address Monroe Eskew's question. It's an empirical fact that the mathematical community has decided to accord the axioms of ZFC "foundational status." Eskew's question is, why hasn't V=L been granted the same status? We don't necessarily need to have a precise definition of "foundational status," let alone a theory of the relationship between "foundational status" and truth, as long as we agree that the community has granted ZFC that status. – Timothy Chow Jul 12 '19 at 16:01
  • ZFC having "foundational status" and pluralism seem to be at odds with one another. GCH needs to be settled, in my view, under the foundationalist view, but not under the pluralistic one. It makes sense that it would take more time to resolve GCH than it did the Axiom of Choice. I don't know why there should be a time limit when it comes to resolving a problem like GCH. – Jesse Elliott Jul 12 '19 at 21:15
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When I explain the cumulative hierarchy at the beginning of a set theory course, I point out that it involves two rather vague ideas: (1) forming arbitrary subsets of a given set (which is what we do at each successor step of the hierarchy), and (2) continuing forever. More technically, these two sorts of vagueness are represented by the notions of full power sets and arbitrary ordinals.

The constructible universe $L$ still has vagueness (2) built in, but (1) has been replaced with the much less vague formation of definable subsets. The intuitive (for me) content of $V=L$ is therefore that all vagueness of the form (1) can be reduced to form (2).

That sort of reduction strikes me as implausible for two reasons. First, there seems to be no natural connection between (1) and (2). Second, this sort of reduction can actually be disproved in some more restricted contexts (where we and ZFC can actually see what's going on). What I have in mind here are results like the theorem (of Sacks, if I remember correctly) that for almost all reals $r$, the Church-Kleene ordinal ${\omega_1}^{CK}$ relativized to $r$ is the same as the unrelativized one. (Here "almost all" can be taken with respect to either Lebesgue measure or Baire category.) In other words, much of the complexity (one might even say most of the complexity) in a real $r$ does not show up in the ordinals computable from $r$ (or even the ordinals hyperarithmetical in $r$, since those are the same ordinals). To me, that strongly suggests that ordinals capture only a small part of the complexity that can occur in arbitrary sets. And in that sense, arbitrary sets should not all (or even mostly) be constructible.

Andreas Blass
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  • +1 What would you think about the powerset of the ordinals capturing 'most'/all of the complexity that occurs when forming arbitrary subsets and continuing forever? Some people identify $\mathcal{P}(\omega)$ with $\mathbb{R}$ so this seems to be the case for the reals, and I would be tempted to identify $\mathcal{P}(O_n)$ with the surreals which (it has been suggested (by you)) may encode the entire universe taken along with their birthday structure. – Alec Rhea May 21 '19 at 02:53
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    @AlecRhea In the framework of ZFC, the power "set" of the ordinals captures all sets, i.e., every set $x$ can be coded as a set of ordinals as follows. Using AC, fix a bijection from the transitive closure of $x$, TC$(x)$, to an ordinal $\alpha$, and use this bijection to transfer the membership relation $\in\upharpoonright$TC$(x)$ to a binary relation $E$ on $\alpha$. Using a pairing function on ordinals, code $E$ as a set of ordinals. You can reconstruct $x$ because TC$(x)$ is the Mostowski transitive collapse of $(\alpha,E)$. – Andreas Blass May 21 '19 at 12:26
  • Very cool but slightly over my head when you begin to discuss Mostowski collapse, thank you though -- is the same fact true in the absence of choice? It looks like Mostowski's lemma holds without choice (https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/Mostowski%27s+collapsing+lemma), but I don't know if the above argument carries through. – Alec Rhea May 22 '19 at 23:04
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    @AlecRhea My argument definitely requires choice, because I need to biject TC$(x)$ to an ordinal. I'm pretty sure it's possible for two different transitive models of ZF (without choice) to have the same sets of ordinals. – Andreas Blass May 23 '19 at 00:20
  • Interesting, thanks again Andreas. – Alec Rhea May 24 '19 at 06:10
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I think this question deserves a careful conceptual analysis, and I would like to raise two conceptual issues that I consider to be relevant. The first issue is about set theory only, without reference to the role it plays in the foundations of mathematics. The second issue is about the relation between set theory and mathematics. In my opinion, to say that $V=L$ is inconsistent with other axioms without further thoughts does not answer the question, for it just pushes forward the problem: one could also ask for a conceptual basis for preferring the other axioms. Now, the first issue:

  1. Set theory is not supposed to go so much against its original direction of inquiry based on unlimited set-formation. The adoption of $V=L$ represents a radical rupture with the original concept set theory was supposed to be about.

The original direction of set theory was given by the usual naive set concept which is open-ended in the sense that the corresponding set-formation notion is unlimited, the naive operation of set of applies without limitation to any plurality of particular objects, no matter what. That open-endedness is present in Cantor's famous paragraph and the corresponding undisciplined gathering by which sets can thus be obtained in the naive conception leads to well-known paradoxical conclusions. For instance, based on unlimited set-formation one can say that a universe of sets can be seen as just a set in another universe, that whenever a plurality of sets is considered, there might be new sets outside, as nothing in the open-ended set concept prevents the application of set-formation to that plurality itself.

After the discovery of the now well-known paradoxes in the realm of unlimited set-formation, iterative set-formation has assumed the position of preferred conceptual basis for set theory. The iterative conceptual direction for set theory is a suitably organized in stages set-formation notion in which the production component is dominant and the organization level is reduced to a minimum, just enough to avoid the known paradoxes derived from unlimited set-formation. Iterative set-formation is unbalanced, but still points in the acceptable direction in which production is dominant. On the other hand, the organization component of the constructible variation of iterative set-formation is dominant with respect to its production component, which is responsible for its strength. The unbalanced constructible set-formation is capable of justifying the very strong constructibility axiom, deciding basically every question that is supposed to be decided. However, in spite of its virtues, this kind of unbalance is not acceptable mainly because set theory is not supposed to go against its original direction of inquiry based on unlimited set-formation.

  1. $V=L$ reinforces the already dominant arithmetical/combinatorial character of set theory over the geometrical/dynamical component of the mathematical thought.

The pythagorean view embodied by $V=L$ and according to which everything is completely determined by the ordinals is not very faithful to the geometrical component of the mathematical thought (since the discovery of the incomensurability of the diagonal of the square). Indeed, Jensen opposes it to the newtonian view according to which the continuum admits no simple arithmetical/combinatorial reduction. We always had the arithmetical thought in which things are supposed to be counted and the geometrical thought in which things are supposed to be measured, not counted. In set theory, thanks to the (very combinatorial-like) axiom of choice, everything is supposed to be counted and not every part of the continuum can be measured. We have the anti-geometrical Banach-Tarski paradox, a consequence of this asymmetrically combinatorial framework. Since we have been exposed to the arithmetization of simple geometrical notions such as that of limit for more than a century, the arithmetical reduction of geometry was partially naturalized, but it is not very natural. It is quite cumbersome to do, for example, geometry of bundles and connections in set theory, as one must keep track of a lot of annoying identifications. $V=L$ emphasizes this asymmetry, it is just too much arithmetic-friendly and geometric-unfriendly. The asymmetry is already present in usual set theory anyway, and maybe topos theory must be considered more neutral with respect to the arithmetical and geometrical components of mathematical thought, but that is another story.

  • I don't buy your point (2) yet, although I think it's potentially quite interesting. I don't see how V=L goes further in the "antigeometric" direction. In particular, you describe the "geometrical component of mathematical thought" as being opposed to a "simply (combinatorially/arithmetically) definable" universe, but the example you give doesn't seem to fit this picture to me: it's not a situation where we abandon a commitment to definability, but rather where we prefer one notion of definability (= "geometrically constructible") to another. (cont'd) – Noah Schweber May 20 '19 at 03:06
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    In fact, I generally consider "geometrically-flavored" mathematics (indeed, most math) to be stricter - e.g. there's rarely a role for sets more complicated than analytic and ZFC already is enough to give a decent picture of the analytic sets. My own "hot take" for V=L is that it minimizes the extent to which set theory goes beyond what's needed - it's not that the geometrical viewpoint encourages us to think beyond the constructible, but rather that set theory encourages us to think beyond the geometrically meaningful. (And then large cardinals ruin this hot take, but that's a deep fact.) – Noah Schweber May 20 '19 at 03:08
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    I have not characterized the geometrical component of mathematics, but I think it is fair to say that V=L goes further in the antigeometric direction. First, the continuum becomes too arithmetical under V=L, as it is too close to the natural numbers. On the contrary, the geometric continuum seems to be something very distant, inaccessible from the natural numbers and incomensurable with it. Second, V=L seems to impose further dificulties to the measure problem by excluding measurables. Third point, I think Suslin lines are very antigeometric. But I agree that these may not seem very strong. – Rodrigo Freire May 20 '19 at 04:21
  • Which is stronger among mathematicians as a whole: The desire for “unlimited set-formation” or the dislike of independence? – Monroe Eskew May 20 '19 at 06:29
  • The first issue that I have raised is internal to set theory, not directed to mathematicians as a whole: to adopt V=L is to betray itself, to go against its origin. 2) I agree that V=L gives a better theory in the sense of a complete explanation of something, but this something seems not to be in the intended direction of mathematics as, for example, its real numbers seems very far from the geometric thought which motivated its study in the first place.
  • – Rodrigo Freire May 20 '19 at 09:40
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    In short: Deciding things about unintended objects will not improve mathematics. The constructible real numbers seems not to be the intended real numbers, so proving statements about this object is not the same thing as solving a classical mathematical problem. – Rodrigo Freire May 20 '19 at 09:48
  • @RodrigoFreire I worry that this “seeming” is illusory. Sure, working directly in L doesn’t look like classical geometry, and it may seem a priori unlikely that every mathematical object should be constructible in this way. But once you know that the ambitious and powerful ZFC axioms cannot prove that something exists outside of L, maybe you decide that your intuition was mistaken. – Monroe Eskew May 20 '19 at 10:58
  • Being unfaithful to the geometrical thought (which probably is most of mathematics) is not just a matter of excluding things: V=L proves the existence of a suslin line. Much more important is how presumed geometric things behave under this hypothesis. The continuum does not seem to behave correctly under this hypothesis, as it becomes too close to the natural numbers. I think this is the essence of pythagoreanism, as Jensen puts it, and it is very akin to a view that mathematics has rejected long ago. – Rodrigo Freire May 20 '19 at 11:22
  • @RodrigoFreire It’s hard to see what you mean by this, because there is no classical mathematical result about the continuum which can be used as evidence to say that it behaves “incorrectly” in L. Furthermore, what’s wrong with Suslin lines? Are Aronszajn lines also counterintuitive generally? – Monroe Eskew May 20 '19 at 11:35
  • Ok, suslin lines are an example to show that V=L is not just excluding things. If you work for many years with some technical issue, no matter how technical it is at first, it will become natural to you. The continuum under V=L admits a representation by ordinals and definability that is not quite faithful to its origin, but of course that is not a precise statement. – Rodrigo Freire May 20 '19 at 11:43
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    I will try to give an example of the sort of incorrect behavior I have in mind: to admit a low complexity definable well- ordering is not the sort of thing one expects of a continuum object. Admiting nonmeasurable parts is another, but this is in ZFC already (which is not neutral with respect to geometry and combinatorics according to what I understand). – Rodrigo Freire May 20 '19 at 12:44