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Say we have DC-λ where λ is some inaccessible cardinal. Is that enough to develop all of ordinary mathematics? If not, is there a strengthening that is but that nevertheless does not assume full choice high up in the universe of sets?

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Your hypothesis is in a sense stronger than just assuming ZFC outright.

Namely, if we have $\lambda$-DC for some inaccessible cardinal $\lambda$, and ZF in the background, then in particular, we will have the full axiom of choice inside the universe $V_\lambda$, consisting of all sets of rank less than $\lambda$, since $\lambda$-DC implies choice for all families of size less than $\lambda$. So $V_\lambda$ will be a model of full ZFC.

Therefore, by simply jumping inside this universe $V_\lambda$, we recover full ZFC for all the purposes of "ordinary mathematics." If all ordinary mathematics would take place inside such a universe, then the answer would be yes.

But let me note that it is somewhat subtle to define what one means by inaccessible cardinal in the absence of the axiom of choice, since the usual definition would be that $\lambda$ is an uncountable regular strong limit, but being a strong limit should mean that if $\kappa<\lambda$ then $P(\kappa)<\lambda$ as well, and so in particular, $P(\kappa)$ is well-orderable. But in this case it follows by definition that if $\lambda$ is inaccessible, then the axiom of choice holds in $V_\lambda$ just as a consequence of inaccessibility.

In other words, we get ZFC in $V_\lambda$ even without your $\lambda$-DC assumption. In this sense, the power of your hypothesis for ordinary mathematics consists of your having an inaccessible cardinal in the first place, rather than in your having $\lambda$-DC.

Controversial counterpoint. Meanwhile, let me also say that my view also is that we would make a fundamental disservice to mathematics and to ourselves by attempting to limit our mathematical conceptions to those ideas that have proved productive in the past, limiting ourselves to the ideas used in "ordinary" realms of mathematics. Set theory has discovered a vast new tranfinite realm of mathematical reality and fundamental principles that govern it, such as the axiom of choice but also large cardinals and many new strong principles with transformative global effects. In my view, the fact that those principles do not apply as much to the older "ordinary" questions do not show the impotence of the new ideas, as much as they show the impotence of the old ideas in capturing the vast new lands before us.

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    Joel, regarding your controversial counterpoint, if I said, say, that we should be platonists about countable DC but formalists about stronger forms of choice --- would I be doing a fundamental disservice to mathematics? I ask because you talk about "limiting ourselves to the ideas used in `ordinary' mathematics", which sounds like someone wants to somehow forbid non-ordinary mathematics. Maybe there are such people, but it sounds like a pretty fringe position. – Nik Weaver Aug 11 '23 at 17:10
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    ... I was once accused by Harvey Friedman of wanting to "BAN" (his all caps) some mathematical fields. When I pressed him to indicate where I had ever said that, his response was something to the effect of "by saying that certain kinds of math lack a clear philosophical justification, and therefore we should be formalists about them, I was discouraging people from pursuing those directions, and, in effect, attempting to BAN them". So I have become sensitized to words like "limiting" which seem a little strawman-ish. – Nik Weaver Aug 11 '23 at 17:14
  • In my personal view, I don't find those hybrid foundations to be attractive. The view I was trying to criticize in my final paragraph is a quite common one (not fringe), the idea that we should take as a goal to have the weakest possible foundational axioms that support "ordinary" or "natural" mathematics. I have highlighted this core dispute between strong foundations and weak foundations in my book and elsewhere, since I think disagreement on this points lies at the core of many other disputes. – Joel David Hamkins Aug 11 '23 at 17:22
  • Which book? I need to read this. – Nik Weaver Aug 11 '23 at 17:28
  • https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262542234/. That issue is treated (briefly) in chapter 8. – Joel David Hamkins Aug 11 '23 at 17:31
  • What I call for in part is greater philosophical engagement specifically with the dispute between strong foundations and weak. Weak foundationalists seem to have the reasonable goal of frugality of commitment; strong foundationalists claim fundamental discoveries, which will support fundamental mathematical insights and unification. How are we to adjudicate this dispute? – Joel David Hamkins Aug 11 '23 at 18:16
  • It seems as though neither of your characters (strong foundationalist/weak foundationalist) is primarily concerned with what is true. Both positions sound quite operationalist. – Nik Weaver Aug 11 '23 at 19:58
  • Perhaps this meshes with your distaste for hybrid foundations. If one believes, as I do, that mathematical objects actually exist in some meaningful, well-defined sense, and some statements about them are true while others are not, then maybe it makes sense to be platonists about those axioms that we are confident are true, but formalists about those axioms whose truth status is unclear. From an operationalist perspective I suppose that wouldn't make sense. Anyway, I ordered your book and look forward to reading a more detailed account of your analysis. – Nik Weaver Aug 11 '23 at 20:00
  • I think your perception about the positions I describe is not correct, since the strong foundationalists are typically arguing from truth---they have discovered these fundamental truths that we should incorporate into our foundations because it will help us discover more truths. The weak foundationalists, in contrast, seem often to argue from a view of efficiency---stronger principles are not needed for the math that we want, but underlying the view there often also seems to be some skepticism lurking about stronger principles. It seems you find a natural home with the weak foundationalists. – Joel David Hamkins Aug 11 '23 at 20:16
  • Maybe so, but I would place skepticism about stronger principles first. If the axioms I think are clearly true turn out to be just those which are needed in mainstream mathematics, then maybe that is some sort of confirmation, but this is not why I think they are true. – Nik Weaver Aug 11 '23 at 20:23
  • Right, that is sensible. But then why does one hear so often in the arguments about foundations that certain principles/axioms are not needed for ordinary applications? (For example, in this question.) That feature seems irrelevant to the question of truth, which is what we should really care about when choosing our foundations. – Joel David Hamkins Aug 11 '23 at 20:27
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    I agree with this! – Nik Weaver Aug 11 '23 at 21:20
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    @NikWeaver I don't understand the motivation for being "formalists about those axioms whose truth status is unclear." Why not be platonists about such statements, but simply agnostic about their truth status? This is what we do all the time with something like the Riemann hypothesis. That is, the "standard" perspective is that the Riemann hypothesis is either true or false, but we just don't know which. Even if we accumulated evidence that we are never going to know which it is, that wouldn't tempt us to declare that the Riemann hypothesis is neither true nor false, would it? – Timothy Chow Aug 11 '23 at 23:51
  • @TimothyChow you're right. I confused myself because I was thinking about the fact that I'm not certain the axioms I am skeptical of are false. But that's not the point; the point is that even they are definitely false as a description of what I understand to be the set-theoretic universe, as long as they are consistent we can legitimately reason with them. – Nik Weaver Aug 12 '23 at 03:27
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    @TimothyChow: "Even if we accumulated evidence that we are never going to know which it is, that wouldn't tempt us to declare that the Riemann hypothesis is neither true nor false, would it?" - Doesn't it depend on the kind of evidence that we accumulate? For instance, one kind of evidence we could obtain is a proof that the truth/falsity of RH is independent of the usual axiomatic systems that mathematicians work in. That would be a reason to doubt that RH has a definite truth value (at least for some). – Sam Hopkins Aug 12 '23 at 15:29
  • @SamHopkins In theory what you say is correct, but I don't think I've encountered anyone like that. People I've met either already doubt that RH has a definite truth value, or else unprovability doesn't faze them. For example, I don't know of anyone who says that the unprovability of "ZF is consistent" in ZF is what convinced them that ZF is neither consistent nor inconsistent. – Timothy Chow Aug 12 '23 at 18:21
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    @TimothyChow: I do hope nobody will ever convince themselves about any statement, including RH, that it is neither true nor false. They would immediately disappear in a puff of logical smoke of inconsistency. (That's just my way of saying that you probably did not literally mean what you wrote.) – Andrej Bauer Aug 13 '23 at 17:46
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    @AndrejBauer I think I did literally mean what I wrote. Sam Hopkins was referring to people who might "doubt that RH has a definite truth value." Isn't that the same as "neither true nor false"? Syntactic expressions that are not well-formed, and therefore cannot be interpreted, are neither true nor false, aren't they? – Timothy Chow Aug 13 '23 at 17:50
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    By the way, much the same discussion can be had about excluded middle and constructive mathematics, which is not just frugal, it's downright ascetic. The old school proceeded from philosophical positions, but I would say the new generation, especially people close to computer science, are in the first place pragmatic (although still speak fanatically at times). Personally, I am just fascinated by how rich mathematics gets once we drop excluded middle – one can get all sorts of things that are classically unthinkable. – Andrej Bauer Aug 13 '23 at 17:50
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    @TimothyChow: no, it is not the same at all! "Neither true nor false" means $\neg p \land \neg\neg p$, which is just false (classically and constructively). "Not having a definite truth value" is necessarily a meta-theoretic statement, because internally to any logic every statement obviously has a truth value simply by virtue of being meaningful. However, meta-theoretically we could observe a statement $p$ whose interpretation in some Boolean or Heyting algebra is something other than $\bot$ or $\top$. – Andrej Bauer Aug 13 '23 at 17:53
  • P.S. Ill-formed expressions and other kinds of meaningless statements (for instance those involving invalid definite descriptions) play no role in a discussion about truth values. They are not in the domain of the semantic interpretation function that assigns truth values. – Andrej Bauer Aug 13 '23 at 17:55
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    @AndrejBauer I don't think that your proposal is an accurate reflection of what a formalist means by "neither true nor false." The formalist means something closer to, "RH is a syntactic string to which no truth value can be assigned." That is, the formalist denies that RH is a meaningful statement. – Timothy Chow Aug 13 '23 at 17:58
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    I repudiate the formalist's petulant expostulations. In any case, what business would a formalist have talking about truth values, a semantic concept, in the first place? – Andrej Bauer Aug 13 '23 at 18:00
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    I don't mean to place myself in any camp, but when I was referring to the RH possibly lacking a "definite truth value" I meant in the sense of, say, S. Feferman's paper "Is the Continuum Hypothesis a definite mathematical problem?" (Incidentally, I think CH is a good example showing how the kind of evidence I mentioned above - namely, the work of Gödel and Cohen - could convince someone that a proposition they previously have thought of as a perfectly "normal" mathematical statement might lack a truth value.) – Sam Hopkins Aug 13 '23 at 18:16
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    I elaborated on my point of view, in case anyone is interested. This thread is getting too long. – Andrej Bauer Aug 13 '23 at 20:09
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It depends on what you mean by "ordinary" mathematics. The reverse mathematics school has shown that you can do virtually all, arguably entirely all, of what is usually meant by "ordinary" using only countable dependent choice.

You can say things like "Tychonoff's theorem requires the full axiom of choice", but actual uses of Tychonoff's theorem in mainstream, non set-theoretic fields rarely need more than countable products. I'm not aware of any applications that require Tychonoff for uncountable products that I would consider "ordinary" mathematics. I don't think I've ever used the Hahn-Banach theorem on a nonseparable Banach space, and on separable Banach spaces it doesn't require any choice. Nor have I ever used Alaoglu's theorem in the dual of a nonseparable space. So from my point of view all essential uses of forms of choice stronger than countable DC are somewhat exotic.

Nik Weaver
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    We use much more AC than (countable) DC in commutative algebra and algebraic geometry. Many important rings, especially those have something to do with analytic geometry, such as valuation rings, are non-Noetherian. – Z. M Aug 11 '23 at 03:43
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    @Z.M Can you elaborate on your comment? Just because one is studying non-Noetherian rings doesn't automatically mean that AC is needed. – Timothy Chow Aug 11 '23 at 11:12
  • Do you ever use an ultrafilter? I thought they were at least occasionally useful in functional analysis – new account Aug 11 '23 at 16:11
  • @newaccount good question. Ultrafilters are certainly used in functional analysis. However, most of those uses are not needed, in the sense that they can be avoided in the applications of central interest. Whether that is always the case, for "ordinary" mathematics, will surely be a judgement call. I will stand on my position that all the necessary uses of ultrafilters that I know about are exotic, though I am sure others would disagree. – Nik Weaver Aug 11 '23 at 17:03
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    @newaccount Some uses of ultrafilters could "in principle" be eliminated by generically adjoining a suitable ultrafilter to the universe, proving the desired theorem in that forcing extension, and then returning to the original universe by some absoluteness result. Of course you might need a set theorist to design a notion of forcing to produce your "suitable" ultrafilter. – Andreas Blass Aug 11 '23 at 18:23
  • @AndreasBlass Thanks. I'm aware of that and I mentioned it in my answer. My understanding is it actually provides an algorithm to transform an ultrafilter proof to an ultrafilter-free proof? – new account Aug 11 '23 at 18:25
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    @TimothyChow There are many situations where AC (or at least, the ultrafilter lemma) is necessary for the current framework to work. For example, Krull's existence of maximal ideals needs the full generality of AC for non-Noetherian rings. We also need the abundance of valuation rings (and that they are stable under ultraproducts) to work with v-topology and arc-topology, where we need at least the ultrafilter lemma. Non-Noetherian rings appear naturally: even if you start with a variety, modern techniques such as perfectoid spaces will quickly lead you to non-Noetherians. – Z. M Aug 11 '23 at 18:42
  • @Z.M One standard "trick" for avoiding AC when you need a maximal ideal is to simply define a commutative ring to be a "commutative ring with a maximal ideal." Does this trick get increasingly cumbersome as you develop more theory? For example, maybe you need constructions that don't guarantee a maximal ideal even if the inputs to the construction have maximal ideals? – Timothy Chow Aug 11 '23 at 23:37
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    @TimothyChow I do not understand your trick. If I understand correctly, one point is Deligne's completeness theorem (equivalent to the ultrafilter lemma): the Zariski locale (or some valuative locale) has enough points, thus we can reduce to stalks, i.e. local rings (or valuation rings), somehow sort of "stalk-local global principle". I do not mean that AC or the ultrafilter lemma is un-eliminable (some partial progress was made by Lombardi–Quitté and so on), but that current mathematics build on them, and it is nontrivial to eliminate. – Z. M Aug 12 '23 at 15:48
  • One use of uncountable Tychonoff in combinatorics (not sure how essential this is!) is to prove that the space of functions from $\mathbb R$ to ${1,\dots,k}$ (i.e. the space of $k$-colorings of $\mathbb R$) is compact, with the usual product topology. By a compactness argument, if we want to find a $k$-coloring of $\mathbb R$ with a certain property, and all obstructions have a fixed finite size, then it's enough to find a $k$-coloring of every finite subset of $\mathbb R$. For example, Theorem 5.2.2 in Alon & Spencer's Probabilistic Method uses this trick. – Misha Lavrov Aug 12 '23 at 18:44
  • @AndreasBlass, it would be interesting to see a more detailed version of your comment. – Mikhail Katz Aug 13 '23 at 14:51
  • “Nor have I ever used Alaoglu's theorem in the dual of a nonseparable space.” How about in proving that the state space of a unital $C^$-algebra is compact? Even $B(\ell^2)$, arguably the simplest example of an infinite-dimensional $C^$-algebra, is non-separable. I think this is an important application of Alaoglu's theorem in the dual of a non-separable Banach space. – J. van Dobben de Bruyn Aug 13 '23 at 19:21
  • @J.vanDobbendeBruyn I care a lot about state spaces of separable C${}^*$-algebras, but the state space of $B(l^2)$? That's a pretty pathological object --- why do we care whether it's compact? – Nik Weaver Aug 13 '23 at 20:18
  • @NikWeaver Fair enough. But are you saying the only interesting (state spaces of) $C^*$-algebras are the separable ones? I find that hard to believe, even though I don't have a concrete application at hand. I imagine that it would be impossible to have, say, a general theory of von Neumann algebras without this, but maybe I'm overestimating the importance of compactness of the state space. – J. van Dobben de Bruyn Aug 13 '23 at 21:04
  • Well, I'm sure there are people who care about state spaces of von Neumann algebras, but non-normal states tend to be pretty awful --- I think most of us are generally a lot more interested in normal states. – Nik Weaver Aug 13 '23 at 21:19
  • @NikWeaver my worry is more that some very basic results which we take for granted might rely on compactness of the state space. One example would be the existence of pure states (or irreducible representations). But I don't oversee the textbook theory of $C^*$- or von Neumann algebras well enough to fully understand the importance of this in the overall theory. Perhaps you're right that we can do everything we want without it. In any case, there is no point in me further arguing down this line until I can give a concrete example of an non-trivial result that crucially relies on this. – J. van Dobben de Bruyn Aug 13 '23 at 23:18
  • @J.vanDobbendeBruyn I understand your concern. I feel confident in saying that I've never needed a pure state on a von Neumann algebra, but I recognize that my experience is very limited compared to the general community. – Nik Weaver Aug 14 '23 at 02:54
  • @MishaLavrov I would argue that in combinatorics, one is not really interested in $k$-colorings of $\mathbb{R}$. One is really interested in $k$-colorings of every finite subset of $\mathbb{R}$. For example, it's convenient to speak of "the chromatic number of the plane" but what a combinatorialist is really interested in is the maximum chromatic number of a finite subset of the plane. If one forces a choice between the two concepts by removing AC, then the combinatorialist will choose the finitary concept. – Timothy Chow Aug 21 '23 at 15:30
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Some of the other answers seem to be based on the assumption that in ordinary mathematics, one needs (at least) two separate consequences of the full AC: (1) dependent choice (ADC); and (2) existence of nonprincipal ultrafilters.

As is well known, avoidance of choice as much as possible is motivated by its unintuitive consequences, as detailed here. In this context, some of our recent work suggests that ingredient (2) above may be reducible to (1). Namely, we constructed a conservative extension of ZF+ADC where infinitesimals are found within $\mathbb R$, eschewing any need for nonprincipal ultrafilters (in the sense of conservativity just mentioned). We showed, for example, that the Lebesgue measure admits an infinitesimal construction (via counting measures), and that Peano existence theorem similarly admits an intuitive infinitesimal proof.

It would be interesting to explore other areas of mathematics where ultrafilters are used, to determine whether analogous conservative extensions can be constructed that would enable one to bypass the dependence on the existence of ultrafilters.

The moral one draws from this is that the two goals of the revolution of 1870: (a) elimination of infinitesimals, and (b) increased rigor via formalisation of foundations, are actually entirely unrelated, contrary to much flak in the historical literature. To put it another way, the reason it is so hard to put infinitesimals back into mathematics is because they were taken out to begin with when the foundations were formalized. Notably, one shortcoming of ZF was its failure to formalize the Leibnizian distinction between assignable and inassignable quantities, which had been the source of infinitesimals in analysis for centuries before they were eliminated from the foundations.

Alec Rhea
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Mikhail Katz
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    One should perhaps mention Nelson's "radically elementary probability theory", which is based on very modest means (as opposed to the treatment not involving infinitesimals). – Sam Sanders Aug 13 '23 at 14:08
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    @SamSanders, Nelson's REPT turns out to be a subsystem of SCOT, which is conservative over ZF+ADC. – Mikhail Katz Aug 13 '23 at 14:11
  • Ultrafilters and ultraproducts appear frequently in algebraic geometry, cf. §3.2 of Bhatt–Mathew. – Z. M Aug 13 '23 at 22:06
  • @Z.M : I tried reading Bhatt-Mathew but found the terminology rather inaccessible. Could you perhaps point out a basic problem in algebraic geometry that is usually solved using ultraproducts, without using hifalutin' language? I could then try to check whether this can also be done without ultrafilters along the lines of Blass's comment. – Mikhail Katz Aug 15 '23 at 13:35
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    I am not technically equipped to extract a concrete "basic" problem, but if I understand correctly, it is basically used to reduce general rings to valuation rings (e.g. ultraproducts of valuation rings are still valuation rings). It is analogous to reducing general manifolds to open subsets of $\mathbb R^d$ in differential geometry. Hansen–Scholze gives a construction of perverse $t$-structure using these techniques. – Z. M Aug 15 '23 at 16:07
  • @Z.M , thanks for this. Well, I work in differential geometry, but what do you mean by reducing general manifolds to open subsets of Euclidean space? Certainly locally they are, but not globally in general. – Mikhail Katz Aug 15 '23 at 16:11
  • When you have a sheaf, either on a manifold, or "globally" on the category of all manifolds with some topology, it is zero if and only it is zero locally. In other words, there are two steps: 1. showing that it is a sheaf; 2. showing that it is locally zero (which is a computation in $\mathbb R^d$. The reduction to valuation rings is similar: 1. showing that is is a v-sheaf or arc-sheaf; 2. showing that it is zero on valuation rings (where the computation is much easier). We can also replace being zero by other properties, cf. Bhatt–Mathew, Cor 3.18,19&25. – Z. M Aug 15 '23 at 16:36
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Each of the following is, at the very least, convenient for usual mathematics, but probably to a large extent unnecessary.

  1. Countable/dependent choice. With them analysis and measure theory can be developed smoothly. But actually most of analysis is essentially countable, and can be done in fragments of second-order arithmetic, as is shown by results in reverse mathematics. See for example Timothy's link.

  2. Existence of non-principal ultrafilters. This is sometimes useful in functional analysis and geometric group theory where people take ultraproducts of metric spaces. Again, if you analyze the proof closely, you can probably eliminate the use of ultrafilter. In fact reverse mathematicians have proved that ultrafilters are indeed unnecessary in many cases: there was work by Kreuzer showing that roughly speaking, for a significant class of statements in second-order arithmetic, if you can prove them with ultrafilters then you can prove them without ultrafilters; then Montalban and Shore showed that you can even assume the ultrafilters have extra nice properties.

  3. Zorn's lemma. Of course this is equivalent to choice under $\mathsf{ZF}$, but I have in mind the usual applications like existence of enough prime/maximal ideals. According to nLab such uses can sometimes be eliminated by considering the entire partial order, or the collection of all chains, etc. Even if a working algebraic geometer wants to use Zorn's lemma for convenience, they don't need it to prove something like "$\mathbb{C}_p$ and $\mathbb{C}$ are isomorphic as fields". However, I'm quite ignorant in algebra and I don't really know which fields do people want to have algebraic closures of.

To summarize, countable/dependent choice, ultrafilters and Zorn's lemma are not strictly necessary, but nevertheless convenient, for usual mathematics. And $\mathsf{AC}$ happens to imply all three of them, and hence itself convenient. Moreover $\mathsf{AC}$ arguably seems more obvious than Zorn's lemma. I think that makes a good case for accepting $\mathsf{AC}$ as an axiom, instead of the conjunction of countable/dependent choice, existence of non-principal ultrafilters and whatever instances of Zorn's lemma an algebraic geometer needs. Of course if you feel adventurous, you are welcome to prove everything (like FLT) in $\mathrm{EFA}$ to test Friedman's grand conjecture.

new account
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