10

For over an year I have otherwise been pretty active on MathOverflow but for this question I would like to remain anonymous.

I would be starting my grad school in Fall 2011 in the US while in the 25th year of my life. I will be joining a grad school which is ranked by most lists within their top 10.

I have been working and hope to continue to work in areas in theoretical physics which have a strong interface with mathematics, especially geometry.

I understand that most people start their PhD at the age of 22 (or even below!).

I would like to know how does it affect my career, now that I will be getting my PhD around the age of 30. I am very worried and extremely depressed that this is possibly too late to start a PhD. I guess most scientists become faculty by the age of 30 when I would be getting my PhD!

I would be happy to get any feedback/advice about starting PhD so late in life.

  • Also can one get a PhD in theoretical physics/mathematics in less than 5 years?
  • I have made this question community wiki.
curious
  • 1
  • 50
    I really doubt it will be any sort of problem. Do good work, and no one will ask how old you are. – Dan Ramras Mar 29 '11 at 18:10
  • 1
    Almost duplicate? http://mathoverflow.net/questions/7120/too-old-for-advanced-mathematics/ – stankewicz Mar 29 '11 at 18:15
  • 3
    It's not uncommon for people to start their phd later. In Germany I think this is the norm, because they have 13 years of school and an obligatory military education for 1 year or 9 months... So many of the germans start their phd around 24, 25 or later. I will be in the same position as you. – Olivier Bégassat Mar 29 '11 at 18:25
  • 1
    I think if you look into it, the average age for getting your PhD may be around 30. Whether you want to face the job market is a completely different question. – Jon Bannon Mar 29 '11 at 18:29
  • 1
    I am not very familiar with the US system, so this is more a general remark than concrete advice (and I have no 'statistics' to back up the following). While I saw announcments for various PostDoc positions/fellowships that imposed a maximum number of years after having received a PhD to be eligible, I can remember much fewer that had a biological age limit and if they had then it was quite 'generous', so that the about 3 years of 'delay' you mention would be little problem. –  Mar 29 '11 at 18:40
  • 2
    I will just mention that I know a PhD mathematician who didn't even start undergraduate work until the age of 25. This person has worked in the field ever since and in many ways (almost all directly orthogonal to the usual senses) has been unusually creative and productive. Frankly I think mathematics and science could use more people like this. – Steve Huntsman Mar 29 '11 at 18:46
  • 2
    I started at 26, finished in four years. – Frank Thorne Mar 29 '11 at 18:47
  • 5
    What is worrying you more, your age or your results? I really cannot understand people when they say such things. – SNd Mar 29 '11 at 19:03
  • 30
    I honestly think this is not even enough of a rational worry to make for a good question. Voting to close because there is simply no problem here! – Pete L. Clark Mar 29 '11 at 19:34
  • 4
    Dear curious, I have known strong mathematicians who began their PhD much later than the age of 25. And their are other strong mathematicians who finish at this age or younger. Certainly beginning your PhD at age 20, with a likely finishing age of around 30, is absolutely nothing to be concerned about. One should also note that, at least in the U.S., it is (as far as I know) illegal to make decisions based on age (as opposed to say years after PhD or other measures of career stage), and (speaking from experience now, not just from some vague legal understanding) people in the U.S. ... – Emerton Mar 29 '11 at 19:47
  • 2
    ... who are making grant decisions, or hiring decisions, tend to be careful about not using biological age as a metric, but instead using measures such as years from PhD or other career-stage-based metrics. In short, no-one but you will attach any importance at all to your age when you finish your PhD. Regards, Matthew – Emerton Mar 29 '11 at 19:49
  • 21
    If "PhD" in the title were replaced by "training as a figure skater with hopes for the 2016 olympics", then there might be a problem. – Marty Mar 29 '11 at 20:28
  • 17
    $\lvert 25 - 22 \rvert \ll 25$ – Theo Johnson-Freyd Mar 29 '11 at 21:29
  • 4
    To add to the varied responses to this highly individual question: My oldest brother got married soon after high school and tried to make a career as a drummer while becoming a father, but changed course at age 22 and started college when I did but worked full-time at night as a local sportswriter. He made junior Phi Beta Kappa (math major) and got his Yale Ph.D. in philosophy (of science) at age 31 when I also got my Ph.D. there in math. He had an offbeat teaching career, helped to found Evergreen State College, etc. The downside is that he lived only to 55. Everyone makes choices. – Jim Humphreys Mar 29 '11 at 22:06
  • 26
    If you prove a great result 10 years after you graduate, you may be ineligible for a Fields Medal. Aside from that, I don't think it makes any difference. – Peter Shor Mar 29 '11 at 22:13
  • 2
    While I sympathise with the OP, I don't think this question belongs on MO. Perhaps try asking Professor Nescio (google it if you don't know who professor Nescio is)? – Willie Wong Mar 29 '11 at 22:29
  • This question now has a meta thread - http://tea.mathoverflow.net/discussion/1000/starting-phd-at-the-age-of-25 – François G. Dorais Mar 30 '11 at 00:09
  • 12
    I am 68 and i would go for it even now. – roy smith Mar 30 '11 at 01:42
  • 1
    (If he hadn't already gotten one harrumph years ago, Roy means.) – Pete L. Clark Mar 30 '11 at 05:22
  • 2
    Curious, Now, six years later, how did it go? – Gil Kalai Apr 24 '17 at 07:57

9 Answers9

20

You are only three years older than those 22 year olds. Three years is nothing! I'm having difficulty understanding why you are extremely depressed about this. I have several friends who entered graduate school at age 25-27; it isn't that uncommon.

How long it will take for you to get your PhD will depend on a number of factors, one of which is the field you would like to work in. Some fields, such as number theory, are notoriously difficult to get into, and it may take longer to arrive at research-level mathematics in those fields (relative to newer or less-established fields). If you are concerned about getting in and getting out quickly you might want to steer yourself towards fields that you feel you could make an earlier contribution to; but really, I think that you are unreasonably worried about your position and that you should just take a deep breath.

In the American system it is possible to get the PhD in 4 years but I believe that 5 years is more common, and some take longer. In contrast, 4 years is the normal time frame in the British and Australian systems.

Beren Sanders
  • 2,774
  • 4
    I quite agree. To me, a 25-year-old is still pretty young. But there is an unfortunately persistent myth that the creative powers begin to wane at age (insert some young age here), which I do not believe at all personally, but it's widespread and the effects of the myth can be quite pernicious. – Todd Trimble Mar 29 '11 at 19:17
  • @Beren: I had exactly the same reaction. 22? 25? What's the difference? It might be different in the OP's graduate school since it appears to be so exclusive, but in mine there was a rather diverse distribution of ages, and no-one really noticed and you had to ask to even realize it. – Thierry Zell Mar 29 '11 at 21:07
  • In the Australian system (and probably British too I imagine) you usually get 3 years of funding with the "possibility" (read: certainty) of a 6 month extension. I.e., less than four years. From what I understand in the states the first two years is all course-work with no research. This is not the case in Australia and Britain, where you go straight into research at the beginning. – name Mar 28 '13 at 01:32
15

I guess this is not the kind of example you are after, but I couldn’t resist: Brian May has finished his PhD in astrophysics when he was 60.

Emil Jeřábek
  • 44,710
14

One of the most highly respected researchers in my own field (category theory and its applications) obtained his PhD at an age close to 40. I really think you shouldn't worry. Dig deep and do good mathematics.

Todd Trimble
  • 52,336
  • 2
    Out of curiosity, who was this? – Sridhar Ramesh Jun 01 '11 at 19:49
  • Hi, Sridhar. I'm actually not too sure how much he wants his age publicized (as you know, many mathematicians are sensitive about their ages). If I can verify that his birth year is listed in a fairly well-known text he wrote on category theory, then I'll get back to you. One of his students (or ex-students) is a regular MO contributor, I'll tell you that much (and maybe he'd know whether his adviser would mind at all). – Todd Trimble Jun 01 '11 at 20:54
10

I believe (I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong) that the vast majority of Israeli mathematicians start their PhDs close to that age. The Israeli school is extremely strong (however, as my Israeli friends point out, that might be the reason for why they concentrate in combinatorial fields -- much less baggage than in, say, Algebraic Geometry).

And to add to the list of examples above, Joan Birman started her degree after raising her kids at a time were women did not had a pretty hard time, did very well afterwards, and is very active today (and she is even older than the OP)

Igor Rivin
  • 95,560
  • 6
    I started my undergraund degree at 22, started my PhD at 27, and got my PhD at 32. This is fairly commomn in Israel. I think being a bit more mature is actually helpful in most cases. – Yiftach Barnea Mar 29 '11 at 19:45
  • 5
    I completely agree with Yiftach. I started my M.Sc. at 25, this last October. If I finish my Ph.D. by 30 I'll be happy about it. Maturity helps A LOT. – Asaf Karagila Mar 29 '11 at 23:03
9

I can't write it as a comment (i do not have enough reputation)According to wikipedia Preda Mihailescu received his phd at the age of 42 and then he proved Catalan's conjecture http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preda_Mihailescu .So ,i do not think that it is really a matter of age...

Asterios Gkantzounis
  • 581
  • 5
  • 27
5

The difference between 25 and 22 may seem like a lot at your age, but honestly it's nothing in the context of a life span of 70 years or more. You're certainly not too old to start graduate study and have a very productive career.

Brian Borchers
  • 3,934
2

Here's a technical point that is tangentially relevant for your question.

Some grant-giving institutions have, among their list of official requirements things like:
"The applicant should have received his/her PhD no earlier than two year ago, and no later than 7 years ago".

As far as applying for those kind of grants is concerned, it is an advantage to have finished your PhD later.

André Henriques
  • 42,480
2

Something that can be very satisfying is to acheive a series of long-term goals you have set. Something that can be unsettling is the sense of achieving something unintended or finding that what was previously considered a good goal is not.

The issue of starting a Ph.D. at age 25 versus 22 or some other age is less important (I think) than the issue of whether this fits in with your other personal goals. For example, I can't say that starting a Ph.D. at 25 kept me from starting a family over a decade later, but it probably contributed to the delay. Hindsight shows me the advantages of starting a family earlier than later. There are also issues of employment/financial support, degree to which you spend time not doing academics, etc. If you think you have done a full self evaluation and found that Ph.D. studies fit, good for you; my bet is that you will need to reevaluate your goals on a yearly (if not more frequent) basis.

I do not want to discourage you from a Ph.D. I think that a few hours (days, weeks) spent doing serious thinking and planning now will ensure years of satisfaction to come.

Gerhard "Ask Me About System Design" Paseman, 2011.03.29

Gerhard Paseman
  • 12,968
2

In France most of students (in pure mathematics) start their PhD at the age 24. Indeed they get a A level at 18, then they need to study during 5 years to get a master. They could start a PhD just after the master but most of the time they take one year more to pass the "agregation" diplom (a diplom for teaching). So you get 18+5+1=24.

Paul Broussous
  • 6,176