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Consider the following variation of the twin paradox:

A clock or a biological system ultimately is an electromagnetic system. First, let’s devise a new time measuring device. Imagine a tank of water with a spout on the bottom. The spout has a control mechanism that will release a single drop of water into a vacuum tube. At the bottom of the tube is a sensor that detects when the drop hits it. A wire connecting the sensor at the bottom with the spout control at the top then signals the spout to drop the next drop of water. The system is calibrated such that each drop measures precisely one second of time. Let’s refer to this time measuring device as a gravity clock.

Our gravity clock almost entirely eliminates EM from the timing mechanism (at the surface of the Earth the E&M component along the signal wire makes up 1.6e-8s (4.9/c) of each second).

Now empty the Universe save for 2 instances of Earth. On each of these Earths we place one normal clock (an EM clock) and one gravity clock. Both Earths are in the same inertial frame and all 4 clocks are synchronized.

We now attach rockets to one of the Earth’s and accelerate it and its clocks to near the speed of light.

It seems to me that the “time” dilation is caused by the longer round trip time of photons (or virtual photons) moving between charges. Since, the gravity clock (very nearly) eliminates electromagnetism from its timing mechanism, it will largely be unaffected by the shifting frame.

If the wandering Earth is returned to the stationary Earth (again at near the speed of light), then the two clocks on the stationary Earth will be still be in sync, and I suspect the gravity clock on the wandering Earth will largely be in sync with the stationary clocks (aside from the effect of the signal along wire), while the wandering electromagnetic clock will vary fully as predicted by the Lorentz transformation.

First, is there any reason to believe that this would not be the case; that the gravity clock would actually be affected in the same way as the EM clock?

If not, is it really accurate to describe this situation as “time” dilating (as opposed to say the animation rate of EM systems dilating)?

EDIT: Apologies for not noticing it earlier, but this question: (Time dilation only on electromagnetic force?) is essentially the same as mine. Although, I don't think either of the answers indicate whether any experiment has shown that a gravity clock is affected by "time" dilation.

aepryus
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    I believe that the "gravity clock" on the accelerated Earth will, by the equivalence principle, indeed be affected by the acceleration. – Alfred Centauri Apr 24 '14 at 22:12
  • aepryus: "[...] The spout has a control mechanism that will release a single drop of water into a vacuum tube. At the bottom of the tube is a sensor that detects when the drop hits it. [...] then signals the spout to drop the next drop of water." -- Fine. "Our gravity clock almost entirely eliminates EM from the timing mechanism" -- Surely the sensor and spout control consist of EM charges (as does water). Hence there's EM signalling. "at the surface of the Earth the E&M component along the signal wire makes up 1.6e-8s (4.9/c) of each second)" -- Please explain. – user12262 Apr 24 '14 at 23:30
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    The plain fact of the matter is that radioactive decay clocks confirm SR's prediction to very (very!) high precision And so do atomic oscillation clocks. Moreover, the prediction of GR (recall that subsumes SR) concerning the behavior of time (and gravitational lensing and frame dragging) in a gravitational field have also been tested. (When LIGO finally reports success we'll have the last big piece of the puzzle.) – dmckee --- ex-moderator kitten Apr 24 '14 at 23:41
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    You are misunderstanding the reason we have time dilation. Time dilation has nothing at all to do with "photons moving between charges". Time dilation is a experimental consequence of the observation that physics is the invariant under Lorentz transformations (the set of transformations that leave the space-time interval invariant). The light travelling different distances argument just shows you how light moving at a constant speed must imply time dilation, its not causing time dilation! – JeffDror Apr 25 '14 at 00:00
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    Also note that Special Relativity is a foundational principle of most of modern physics. It has indeed been tested explicitly as mentioned by mckee, but also the fact that every other observation we see in the tens of thousands (or more?) of physics experiments that are running around the world agrees with what we expect further confirms special relativity. – JeffDror Apr 25 '14 at 00:04
  • @user12262 I'm trying to describe a timing mechanism, which largely relies on gravity as opposed to other phenomena. My loose calculation, is the amount of time a signal traveling at c would need to travel the distance it takes a drop to fall one second (0.5*g^2/2 = 4.9m/c) – aepryus Apr 25 '14 at 00:09
  • @JeffDror (and others) I hope I'm not trying to call into question SR or GR. I guess I'm wondering if there is any indication that gravity is affected specifically, not just electromagnetic, weak and strong forces which seem to be the basis of time measuring (in the experiments I'm aware of). I've tried to think of a way of testing that in a more practical way then described above, but have been unsuccessful. – aepryus Apr 25 '14 at 00:16
  • A pendulum clock is a timing mechanism that relies primarily on gravity. You can even use a weight and chain drive to run the thing. – dmckee --- ex-moderator kitten Apr 25 '14 at 00:59
  • @dmckee Thanks, a gravity clock without the EM signal. Although, I'm not sure if the EM wire tension would pose a greater or lesser complication. – aepryus Apr 25 '14 at 02:29
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    @aepryus Perhaps I should mention that this was not meant to encourage you. The road you are following is--in my estimation--not even wrong. The things that relativity tells us about the way the universe works are very well checked and very fundamental. The intuitive picture of space and time that you (and I and everybody else) have in your head is simply incorrect. Space-time really does mix as you change velocity. – dmckee --- ex-moderator kitten Apr 25 '14 at 02:36
  • @dmckee I believe this question is the same as mine (http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/81655/time-dilation-only-on-electromagnetic-force?rq=1). Don't worry, I know better than to ever expect or read encouragement into here. Although, I am slightly amused at the variance in response for the same question. I guess perhaps it's worded better. – aepryus Apr 25 '14 at 02:45
  • aepryus: "[...] a timing mechanism, which largely relies on gravity as opposed to other phenomena." -- The spout (incl. controls) is made of EM charges, the bottom sensor is made of EM charges, and they're exchanging signals. Also: Is there anything stopping spout and/or bottom sensor from dropping along with the water drops? .. (IOW: Good point you made about the "EM wire tension" in another comment). "the distance it takes a drop to fall one second" -- Oh, $g/2 (1 \text s)^2 \approx 4.9 ~ \text m.$ (That's not "one drop released/dripping each second" as I had mistakenly thought.) – user12262 Apr 25 '14 at 04:30
  • @dmckee: "The plain fact of the matter is that radioactive decay clocks confirm SR's prediction to very (very!) high precision [...]" -- No: The plain fact of the matter is that SR doesn't make any predictions at all about decay rates of any particular given radioactive samples. SR (or RT in general) defines how to determine and compare decay rates of given radioactive samples in the first place, especially if they're separate from each other. RT is foundational, not incidental. – user12262 Apr 25 '14 at 04:36
  • "It seems to me" is not an example of an argument. – WillO Aug 27 '23 at 21:28

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In introductory courses on special relativity it's very common to use setups like light bouncing between two rockets or light travelling along a moving rocket. This works well in showing that time dilation and length contraction must happen, but it does tend to give the impression that it's all something to do with the propagation of light and this is most definitely not the case.

Many (most?) physical theories are based upon a fundamental symmetry of nature , and understanding this symmetry is the only way to really appreciate how the theory works. However this is a somewhat abstract approach and is usually not used in introductory courses. Whether this is a good thing or not is debatable, but it does lead to misconceptions like the one your question is based on.

In the case of SR the theory is based on Lorentz covariance or the invariance of the proper time. Suppose we have two spacetime points $(t_1, x_1, y_1, z_1)$ and $(t_2, x_2, y_2, z_2)$, and we set $\Delta t = t_2 - t_1$, $\Delta x = x_2 - x_1$, and so on. Then we define the proper time, $\tau$, by:

$$ c^2\Delta \tau^2 = c^2\Delta t^2 - \Delta x^2 - \Delta y^2 - \Delta z^2 $$

Special relativity is based on the symmetry that all observers in all inertial frames will calculate the same value for $\Delta \tau$. All the weird effects like time dilation and length contraction derive from this principle. I've demonstrated how to do this in my answer to How do I derive the Lorentz contraction from the invariant interval? so I won't go through it again here. The point is that none of the working involves light beams or any other form of electromagnetic radiation.

So your question is really based upon a misconception, and as such I can't answer it. The behaviour of any system such as your clock can be calculated just using Lorentz covariance, though since your example involves acceleration it gets a little more complicated. Acceleration can be described using special relativity - you'll sometimes hear claims that acceleration requires general relativity to explain it but this is not so. As it happens I've just done a related calculation in How long would it take me to travel to a distant star? It wouldn't be hard to extend this calculation to explain what happens in the twin paradox.

John Rennie
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  • I realize I'm being somewhat heretical in this instance. It seems to me, that Math is knowing, not understanding. I remember upon first hearing about 'relativistic mass' thinking it was silly (apparently, I'm not alone in this:http://bit.ly/1jLRH1o). Taking an empiricists stance, in looking at the experiments verifying time dilation they all seem to based on phenomena rooted in the standard model and if we like the perturbation model, then "time dilation" could be explained by the slowing of messenger particles. Perhaps the linked question is clearer in asking what I'm trying to ask. – aepryus Apr 25 '14 at 15:38
  • At any rate, I greatly appreciate your response and will do the homework for it. – aepryus Apr 25 '14 at 15:40
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    @aepryus: I'm afraid I completely and utterly disagree with you. Understanding the role of Lorentz invariance in SR is a road to Damascus moment - without it you will simply never develop the intuition needed to be at ease with SR. Better still, it gives you the footing to jump to general relativity. – John Rennie Apr 25 '14 at 16:21
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Preface

(styled as counterpoint to the answer given here earlier by John Rennie):

The pursuit of physics, being a human endeavor, is not immune to misconceptions, pitfalls, or disagreement about philosophic or epistemologic concepts and directions. Some of them are brought to prominence in the study and even the application of the theory of relativity.

Most glaring is perhaps the idea that anything of geometric of physical relevance might be defined or explained in terms of coordinates. But there are no coordinates "in nature"; therefore proper statements "about nature" cannot refer to coordinates either. On the other hand, the use of coordinates (or at least: good coordinates) and the corresponding use of arithmetic are of course effective and common techniques for solving physics problems. Einstein's struggles with this problematic are often discussed in relation to Einstein's "hole argument". Along the way Einstein expressed the foundational principle that

All our well-substantiated space-time propositions amount to the determination of space-time coincidences [such as] encounters between two or more recognizable material points.

(Arguably, the admissibility of "determination of space-time coincidences" of participants and by participants also implies admissibility of their determination of their non-coincidence.)

This principle is of course put into practice by Einstein's through-experimental definitions; most famously perhaps his (coordinate-free) definition of simultaneity. Of course, this definition explicitly deals with participants observing each other and judging coincidence (or non-coincidence) of observations. (This is even already apparent in Einstein's definition of synchronism (of 1905); especially regarding the requirement of transitivity.)

A related contentious issue is how far the contents and results of (S)RT would be attributable "to nature" (as its "universal properties") at all; or instead to ("conventional", "universally comprehensible") definitions introduced and followed by physicists. In Einstein's writings (directed to the broader public, but therefore surely no less scrupulous and decisive) we find the demand

We thus require a definition of simultaneity such that this definition supplies us with the method by means of which, in the present case, he can decide by experiment whether or not both the lightning strokes occurred simultaneously. As long as this requirement is not satisfied, I allow myself to be deceived as a physicist (and of course the same applies if I am not a physicist), when I imagine that I am able to attach a meaning to the statement of simultaneity. (I would ask the reader not to proceed farther until he is fully convinced on this point.)

Of course, what's required of one particular notion ("simultaneity") is to be demanded of all notions or quantities to be measured, such as "duration" (or more precisely: equailty of durations, or ratios of durations), "mutual rest" (a.k.a. "joint membership of participants in the same inertial frame") etc.; necessarily with the exception of the foundational ability to judge coincidence. Of course the corresponding required "methods" (or in the terminology of the 1905 article: "treatments") are generally stated as thought-experimental definitions.

In summary, relating to your question: It is certainly correct and commendable to approach and study (S)RT by means of thought experiments; you thereby stand in a proud tradition of physicists.

Concerning your specific proposed thought experiment:

[...] The system is calibrated such that each drop measures precisely one second of time.

Of course, this unit "second" has a particular definition referring to some very particular systems of electro-magnetic charges: "caesium 133 atom"s ...

user12262
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Time dilation is not a consequence of motion impairing the mechanism of clocks. Time dimension is a property of the geometry of spacetime, and is symmetrical between any pair of inertial reference frames. It means that time interval between two events in a frame in which they are collocated is always less than the time interval between the same two events in a frame in which they occur in different places. Note that it is the actual interval that is different—it might be five seconds in one frame and twenty in another, and accurate clocks in either frame will indicate the interval correctly by ticking at a second per second.

In the frame of a high-speed muon, you might be time dilated by a factor of sixty, say, so that the interval between every second ticked off by your watch is a minute in the muon's frame. The half-hour TV programme you watch is thirty hours long in the muon frame. The interval between your birthdays is sixty years. A four-minute mile is a 240-minute mile. These effects are all due to the fact that the time axis in the frame of the Earth is tilted relative to the time axis in the frame of the muon—time dilation has nothing to do with the factors you suggested in your question.

Furthermore, your suggestion, if it were true, would lead to logical contradictions. Suppose on Earth we construct an apparatus that includes a bomb that would explode if two clocks became out of synch, one of the clocks being a light-clock and the other being the type of gravity clock that you imagine to be immune to relativistic effects. On Earth, where the clocks remain in synch, there would be no explosion. In the frame of a passing muon, the clocks, according to your suggestion, would become out of synch and the bomb would explode. You cannot have it both ways, so your suggestion must be false.

Marco Ocram
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  • The motivation for this (9 year old) question was to ask for help in parsing out the implications and mechanisms underpinning Time Dilation. Arguably these are perhaps not evil or dishonorable motivations but than again perhaps they are in fact worthy of derision and ridicule.

    Having grappled with these questions the last 9 years, the notion that a "gravity clock" would be immune from the affects of time dilation has increasing come into question in my mind (e.g., the LIGO experiment showing gravity waves moving at about c).

    – aepryus Aug 28 '23 at 04:52
  • However, the thrust of the question remains and really asks what is 'time'? For any observer time is simply the rate at which the particles of their world move about; we make the assumption that we can use these rates to measure "time", but perhaps the rate at which things move about actually does change. Perhaps things actually do move about slower when a frame is translating quickly and / or is exposed to a strong gravitational field. And if that's the case then is it really 'time' that is dilating (as opposed to our mechanism for measuring it)? – aepryus Aug 28 '23 at 04:52
  • @aepryus no that cannot be the case. If you are passed by five muons, each moving at different speeds, your watch will tick at a different rate in each of their frames. It is utterly impossible for that to be caused by something making the particles in your watch 'move about' at a different rate, since they would have to move at five different rates. – Marco Ocram Aug 28 '23 at 06:01
  • It is possible, if the rate of each of the muon's clock is varying. Each muon will see a different rate because they are each comparing the rate to their own varying clocks. However, if you follow this to its logical conclusion there is a more fundamental problem for this idea. Such a Universe would not be a Minkowski space because it is easy to see that ds^2 would not be invariant for such a mechanism. As such has there been experimental verification of invariant ds^2 in our universe? – aepryus Aug 28 '23 at 06:38
  • No, you are being inconsistent now. You started by saying that clocks on Earth change their behaviour as a result of motion. Now you are saying it is the clocks in other frames. Also, you are neglecting the fact that time dilation is entirely reciprocal. In the five separate muon frames, Earth time is dilated by five different amounts; likewise the muon times are dilated by the same five separate proportions in the Earth frame. – Marco Ocram Aug 28 '23 at 08:08
  • How would you account for that if the behaviour of clocks depended both on motion and on the extent to which the working of each clock was governed by electromagnetic or gravitational effects? How could a light clock and an hour glass remain always in synch on Earth and yet 'tick' at different rates in other frames, while also changing their tick rate to maintain five different degrees of reciprocal time dilation in five other frames? – Marco Ocram Aug 28 '23 at 08:12
  • The only way to resolve the conundrum is to assume that clocks tick at the same rate in every frame. On that basis, time dilation can be accounted for in an entirely consistent way from the geometry of spacetime. – Marco Ocram Aug 28 '23 at 08:16