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We briefly introduced some terms at the start of my Fluids class, and one of them was pressure. I'm looking for a rigorous definition of pressure.

Wikipedia gives this definition for pressure: $p = \frac{dF_n}{dA}$ ($p$ is the pressure, $F_n$ is the normal force, and $A$ is the area of the surface on contact). Pressure is the rate at which normal force increases as the area of surface on contact increases.

However, the rate of which the normal force increases on the surface considered depends on how $A$ is increased. Perhaps we extend the surface a little into a region where a great deal of force acts on it, or maybe we extend it into a region where no force acts on it.

$p = \frac{dF_n}{dA}$ is an ambiguous definition because it does not specify how A must be increased.

I'm looking for an unambiguous, rigorous definition. Thanks!

Edit:

To elaborate: $p = \frac{dF_n}{dA} = \lim_{\Delta A \to 0} \frac{F_n(A + \Delta A) - F_n(A)}{\Delta A}$. The problem is that $F_n(A + \Delta A)$ is ambiguous, since it depends on how $\Delta A$ is selected.

Qmechanic
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millsmess
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    It's not ambiguous because the $d$'s in there indicate that you're supposed to consider an infinitely small area $A$ over which to check the force. If you complain that the area is too big and is feeling different amounts of force in different places, you didn't make $dA$ small enough :) – DanielSank Sep 30 '14 at 22:59
  • The unambiguous, rigorous definition is that of normal force per area. It's not clear what else you have in mind. – CuriousOne Sep 30 '14 at 23:00
  • @CuriousOne: OP is confused because he/she realizes that $A$ might feel different forces in different places. OP has to grok "infinitesimal". – DanielSank Sep 30 '14 at 23:01
  • @CuriousOne: Actually "normal force per area" is kind of ambiguous. If I don't tell you how big to make $A$ you could get different results. The definition is only well-formed if I specify that you should take a limit, i.e. $dF/dA$. – DanielSank Sep 30 '14 at 23:04
  • DanielSank: If we extend $A$ to an area where there is some vector field of force which is greater than zero at every point, then the additional force on the surface is greater than zero. In contrast, if we extend $A$ to an area where the force field is zero at every point, then the additional force is not greater than zero. The size of $dA$ doesn't matter in this case. The $F_n$ is increasing at different rates. – millsmess Sep 30 '14 at 23:04
  • @DanielSank: I am sure every physicist in the room will understand exactly what I mean, including the fact that physics is not math and one can't make dA arbitrarily small, as one would in mathematics, since at some point fluctuations will dominate the measurement. As you said, the problem of the OP is not with physics but with calculus. Once the OP has that down, we can talk about the actual physical problem. – CuriousOne Sep 30 '14 at 23:12
  • @CuriousOne: Yeah, I refrained from noting that at really small $A$ you only have a well defined pressure if you average over enough time because the particle flow becomes more discrete. And yeah, the physicists will know, but I was gearing this toward what I'm guessing is OP's current mental hang-up. – DanielSank Sep 30 '14 at 23:28
  • @millsmess: I don't understand your comment. – DanielSank Sep 30 '14 at 23:29
  • @DanielSank Regarding my comment: What part don't you understand? – millsmess Sep 30 '14 at 23:30
  • @millsmess: Maybe we should take this to chat before we post a bazillion comments? I'll hang out in hbar... – DanielSank Sep 30 '14 at 23:31
  • @DanielSank: It's the chicken and egg problem of teaching physics, isn't it? How do we teach people an intuitive understanding before the trust in the power of approximation is established? Mathematics is not even helpful, because few of the concepts in mathematics actually translate one to one to physics. – CuriousOne Sep 30 '14 at 23:31
  • @DanielSank Edit: Okay, hbar it is! – millsmess Sep 30 '14 at 23:32
  • One can define pressure unambiguously from the energy-momentum tensor, and there is no need to fuss with calculation surfaces and the like – Hydro Guy Sep 30 '14 at 23:42
  • @user23873 If you could elaborate - maybe create an answer - I'd appreciate it! – millsmess Sep 30 '14 at 23:42
  • Do you know anything about relativity (special, not general)? If not, it only makes me change a bit the argument, but that's all. Also, do you know anything about lagrangian, and euler lagrange equations, noether theorem and the like? – Hydro Guy Sep 30 '14 at 23:44
  • @user23873 I took a calculus based course in which we briefly covered special relativity. I've read a bit on Lagrangian mechanics, but I'm not familiar with the rest of the topics you list. – millsmess Sep 30 '14 at 23:46
  • Give me a few minutes, I'm preparing some graphs for work, in a few minutes I'll try to elaborate a question – Hydro Guy Sep 30 '14 at 23:49
  • @user23873: Relativity? If you want to get into mathy definitions just call pressure the momentum flow across a plane. No tensors needed. – DanielSank Oct 01 '14 at 00:35
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    Related questions and answers that would probably suffice: http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/107824/what-is-the-difference-between-stress-and-pressure http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/100820/difference-between-pressure-and-stress-tensor – tpg2114 Oct 01 '14 at 03:15
  • It's important to remember that what we mostly call 'fluid mechanics' assumes that the medium is continuous. So step 0 of your problem is "assume that molecular variations are small". In ordinary air you'd have to look at scales smaller than a micron for that not to be true. – user3823992 Oct 01 '14 at 06:41

1 Answers1

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Sorry for the enormous delay, I was caught with more work than I thought, then, here it is.

@DanielSank, relativity is not necessary, it would help with what you said, since it would pinpoint exactly you are calling momentum in your system.

My answer would be an extension of DanielSank comment. When there is the conservation of a continuous quantity, the usual way to treat it is through an continuity equation:

$\frac{\partial A}{\partial t}+\nabla \cdot \vec J_A = S_A$

Where one would read that the quantity '$A$' is conserved if the source '$S_A$' is equal to zero. $\vec J_A$ is called 'current' associated with the quantity $A$. Also if $\int |A| dV < \infty$, the value $Q =\int A\ dV$ is constant in time.

Now, to discuss pressure, one would try to write this kind of continuity equation for a fluid. In this setting, the usual approach for normal fluids is to fix $A=\rho \vec v$, which is interpreted as the momentum density of the fluid. One would get:

$\partial_t (\rho \vec v) + \nabla \cdot \sigma = \vec f$

$\vec f$ is the 'volumar force', i.e., the force for unit of volume throughout the fluid. One good example is the newtonian gravity force, which would result in $\vec f = \rho \vec g = - \rho g \hat z$. The definition of pressure comes when decomposing $\sigma$.

Since $A=\rho \vec v$ is a vector field, $\sigma$ is a given point is a tensor (let's restrict to 3x3), called the stress tensor, thus, we would write a 3x3 matrix for it. Using angular momentum conservation, one can show that $\sigma$ is a symmetric matrix. The decomposition goes as follows:

$\sigma_{ij} = (p+\Pi) \delta_{ij}+ \pi_{ij}$

Where $p = p(\rho)$ would be a function of just the density (and other thermodynamic quantities of the fluid), $\Pi$ and $\pi_{ij}$ could depend also on the velocity field of the fluid, and $\pi_{ij}$ is traceless: $\sum_i \pi_{ii} = 0$. What is usually called the pressure is the term $p$.

If there is no velocity field, $\Pi$ and $\pi_{ij}$ zero, thus one can read the pressure as one third of the trace of stress tensor:

$p = \frac{1}{3} \sum_i \sigma_{ii}$

In this context, and also setting $\vec f=0$, one identifies the integrated momentum flow with the pressure, because one gets, for a surface $\Sigma=\partial \Omega$, boundary of a region $\Omega$:

$\int_\Omega\ (\nabla \cdot \sigma )\ dV = \int_{\partial \Omega}\ \sigma \cdot d\vec S = \int_{\partial \Omega}\ p\ d\vec S$

Thus interpreting the change of the momentum in a given region as the integrated pressure over the boundary surface. One can directly see that if either $\Pi$ or $\pi_{ij}$ is non-zero, there are other contributions to the momentum flow.

It is still possible to use the trace as a definition of pressure, where we would get:

$p + \Pi = \frac{1}{3} \sum_i \sigma_{ii}$

So, $\Pi$, associated with the bulk viscosity of the fluid, acts as a second 'pressure' contribution. The only way to separate the two is through an equation of state, which can't be extract just looking to the conservation laws of the system. Since most liquid systems are treated as 'incompressible' ($\nabla \cdot \vec v =0$), people usually consider $\Pi=0$.

On newtonian fluids, these expressions reduce to the more usual ones:

$\pi_{ij} = \mu\left[\partial_i v_j + \partial_j v_i - \frac{2}{3} (\nabla \cdot \vec v)\delta_{ij}\right]$

$\Pi = - \zeta (\nabla \cdot \vec v)$

This is a purely macroscopical way of approaching hydrodynamics and the definition of pressure, without resorting to any microscopic/kinectic argument, thus, it's not clear where the information about the microscopic x macroscopic scale enters, but this will take another post.

The conection with lagriangians and relativity goes as follows:

When people deal with 'ideal'/non-dissipative systems, it's normal to approach them using an action $I=\int dt\ dV\ \mathcal L$, where $\mathcal L$ is called the 'lagrangian density' of the system. If the action have symmetries, for example, time or space translation, it's possible to write continuity equations associated with those symmetries, this result is called 'Noether Theorem'.

The continuity equation associated with the space translation invariance is the conservation of momentum equation. Also, the Noether Theorem explicitly defines what is the momentum density of your system, without the need to any complicated convention.

When one has Lorentz relativity, there is a more tight connection between time and space, which induce a tighter conection between energy momentum, and what happens is that it identifies the energy current with the momentum density for an isolated system.

edit: I saw @tpg2114 comment just after I completed my answer, thus I'm posting it anyway also because there is a comment here that isn't on DumpsterDoofus answer on the other thread.

Hydro Guy
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  • It's better to have posted the answer than just rely on people going to the other questions I linked. This is more complete anyway. – tpg2114 Oct 01 '14 at 16:27
  • A related answer that conects with Kinectic Theory: http:physics.stackexchange.com/questions/67966/fluids-in-thermodynamic-equlibrium/67971#67971 – Hydro Guy Oct 01 '14 at 22:26