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The clarified version

As far as I understand, Wigner considers a "miracle" the fact that it is even possible to find a mathematical equation that describes a natural phenomenon.

It is not exactly what I was wondering about though. Lets say such an equation has been found. What exactly does it describe?

  1. Do we treat the phenomenon itself as just a black box that happens to "output" numbers that fit into the equation?
    This idea is supported by the fact not every intermediate step in solving the system of equations has an obvious physical interpretation.

  2. The system of equations mirror the internal "structure/working" of the phenomenon?
    On the other hand, this is supported by the following example. Kirchhoff's rule "the algebraic sum of currents in a network of conductors meeting at a point is zero" clearly follows from the fact no additional charges enter or leave the circuit.

  3. Is it a mix of the both options above?

  4. Maybe throughout the history it has been discovered empirically that coming up with equations and then solving them works for physics, but no one really knows why and how it works?
    An answer along these lines is perfectly fine with me too. I just have not seen the way/method math is used in physics discussed anywhere -- and so wonder if I'm missing something obvious to everyone else.


The original question

My question is a general one. But to explain what it is asking let's first a look at "solving" of an electrical circuit using Kirchhoff's laws as an example.

Solving an electrical circuit

So to find out the directions and amounts of the currents we have written down the equations based on the Kirchhoff's laws.
And up to this point we were staying in the physics' "land" -- because Kirchhoff's laws intuitive/physical interpretation is not hard to see.

Once we had the system of equations we used the usual/general math techniques to solve the equations.
I guess, the math techniques used to solve equations were discovered much earlier than the concept of the electric circuit (and the task of solving it) was invented/discovered. Also it does not seem possible to "interpret/map" each step taken to solve the equations in terms of the physical phenomena actually happening in the circuit. But still solving the equations let us find the amounts and directions of currents.
In other words we went outside of the physics' "land" and into the mathematics' "land" but in the end still came up with the physically correct answers.

To sum it up, my question is: Mathematical techniques used to describe physical phenomena are not necessarily specifically invented for physics and do not necessarily have any meaningful physical interpretation. How come these techniques are able to produce correct (can be verified by experiment) results?

And on the same note, who came up with the idea of using math for describing things in physics, how did this person come up with the idea?

Hopefully, it is possible to understand what I'm asking about. I've tried as hard as possible to make the question clear and concise. But, honestly, I find it challenging to express this question clearly. Anyway, I will be glad to clarify it further as much as needed.

Thank you in advance!

Myk
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    This is an old, but valid question. If you read about Max Tegmarks work, he believes that math works because the universe is based on math https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Mathematical_Universe –  Jul 11 '16 at 12:45
  • There is a dedicated site for the history concerned with Physics. –  Jul 11 '16 at 12:45
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    Math originates in counting things in nature. Physics boils down to observing how nature is now and predicting how nature will be in the future. They both originate in observing nature, but math focused more on manipulating the counts of things (sometimes in such an advanced way that counting isn't even involved anymore) and physics more on the prediction side. It is natural for physics to use math. It observes the count of something at one point and predicts the count of it at a different point. Gotta use math to communicate that – Jim Jul 11 '16 at 12:57
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    Eugene Wigner wrote an essay, "The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics in the Natural Sciences". It might be of interest. – Paul T. Jul 11 '16 at 13:11
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    Think for a moment about what happens to proposed descriptions of reality whose math doesn't work for describing the system they pertain to. Kirchhoff's laws didn't end up in the texts because the man's name is fun to say. – dmckee --- ex-moderator kitten Jul 11 '16 at 13:15
  • In a nut: nobody knows why math seems to be the language of the universe. – user122066 Jul 11 '16 at 13:27
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    I actually think this is off topic, as it's really an epistemiology question (on understanding how and why science works). – David Z Jul 11 '16 at 13:43
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    I think this is a legitimate 'soft question'. It is not really epistemology, which deals with what does/does not exist and how we know it exists, but the relation between science and maths as a tool of science. Neither mathematics nor science are 'natural' - they are both man-made and do not exist separately from human reasoning. – sammy gerbil Jul 11 '16 at 14:04
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    I don't think your detailed example is really worth the space which it takes up. – sammy gerbil Jul 11 '16 at 14:57
  • @sammy gerbil I'll be grateful if you suggest a way to shorten the question. I haven't come up with a less detailed version that doesn't also decreases the clarity. It should be possible to make it shorter, but English is not my first language... – Myk Jul 11 '16 at 15:14
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    You should try to think about why math works for describing and solving any sort of problems. In short, it is a problem solving language. – user 85795 Jul 11 '16 at 15:28
  • If you feel that it is necessary to your argument, please keep it. It is your question and you know best what works for you. For myself I would delete from "(And this example takes a considerable..." to the end of the pink box, but leave in the link. The details of the problem are not essential to your argument. – sammy gerbil Jul 11 '16 at 15:55
  • Some day in history, people started investigating and measuring and called it physics. They saw that math is a good tool to describe what they wanted to express. Well, actually English is as well a pretty good tool. Good for describing and explaining and exemplifying (good for understanding), while math is more precisely and logically structured (good for predicting). Considering math as a tool or language as many others has always been fruitful for me. – Steeven Jul 11 '16 at 16:05
  • @sammygerbil (6 comments up) well, regardless of whether it's really epistemiology or not, I don't think it's on topic here. – David Z Jul 11 '16 at 16:06
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    This Wikipedia article the Relationship between Mathematics and Physics is a useful introduction with lots of good references. – Farcher Jul 11 '16 at 16:15
  • @DavidZ : How is this question fundamentally different from accepted soft questions? eg Can pure maths create new theories in physics?, http://physics.stackexchange.com/q/4849 Are there two theories mathematically identical but ontologically different?, http://physics.stackexchange.com/q/130721 Difference between theoretical/mathematical physics?, http://physics.stackexchange.com/q/56293 What happened to David John Candlin?, http://physics.stackexchange.com/q/29475 What are Stephen Hawking's main contributions to physics?, http://physics.stackexchange.com/q/144184 – sammy gerbil Jul 11 '16 at 16:51
  • @sammygerbil In most cases, it's not; I also believe those other questions should be closed. In some cases I do think the question is within our scope. I could explain further in [chat] at some point. – David Z Jul 11 '16 at 16:56
  • @DavidZ : OK, I accept that such borderline decisions are subjective and it is difficult to maintain consistency over time. – sammy gerbil Jul 11 '16 at 17:10
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    The answer depends on one's philosophy of mathematics. For Aristotle, mathematics arises from doing physics, from experiences of the physical world; for Plato, mathematics is imposed on the physical world. Platonists seem to have difficulty explaining "The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics in the Natural Sciences," as Wigner titled his famous article, but to Aristotelians, there is nothing "unreasonable" at all about the applicability of mathematics to physics because math comes from the same objects physics studies! – Geremia Jul 12 '16 at 02:09
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    @Geremia : Thank you for your valuable contribution to the debate. Pity you do not have the option to develop a fuller Answer while the Qn is On Hold. – sammy gerbil Jul 12 '16 at 20:03
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    Yes indeed, @sammygerbil. Nik, I have voted to re-open your excellent questions. Maybe sammy would like to too. If the question doesn't get reopenned, flag it and request migration to Philosophy SE through one of the moderators. On the face of it that SE might be a better fit, although I think the best answers are likely to come from practicing physicists, so I'm disappointed at the question's closing. There are, however, several excellent physicists and mathematicians active of Philosophy SE, so don't disregard that site. – Selene Routley Jul 13 '16 at 00:23
  • @WetSavannaAnimalakaRodVance Well, it's quite well established that not all questions which are best answered by practicing physicists are on topic here. If they would like this on [philosophy.SE], we could certainly migrate it. – David Z Jul 13 '16 at 15:59
  • Hi @DavidZ yes, could you please migrate this question to the Philosophy portal then. Thank you! – Myk Jul 14 '16 at 10:32
  • @Nik It's not up to us, it's up to the people at [philosophy.SE] whether they want to accept the question. I'm trying to check with them, but no response so far. – David Z Jul 14 '16 at 10:32
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    since it is closed: there are two issues: actually physics has been the driving force behind mathematics, so mathematical techniques are more likely to be invented for physics. The second point is: only things which are accessible to mathematical treatments, are considered in physics. This bias is almost unconcious. – lalala Nov 12 '17 at 18:53

1 Answers1

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One very popular view (as espoused by Max Tegmark) is that (quoting count_to_10) :

math works because the universe is based on math

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-the-universe-made-of-math-excerpt/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_universe_hypothesis

Such a view was common from the time of Pythagoras, through to Kepler and Newton, with attempts to find mystical mathematical patterns in nature, and the description of God as a Geometer. Galileo wrote in 1623 : "The book of nature is written in the language of mathematics."


An alternative view which is more "down to Earth" is that mathematics developed from the attempt to describe the world using numbers - not simply counting but also measuring (distance, angle, area, volume, weight, etc). This is obvious in the case of Geometry (literally, 'land measurement'). Trigonometry also developed for use in surveying, navigation and astronomy (in the latter case for predicting floods or auspicious astrological events). Probability was developed to answer questions about gambling. Calculus developed from trying to account for the shape of celestial orbits. More recently, the mathematics of chaos arose from weather prediction, and fractal geometry from the practical question of measuring the length of a coastline.

Throughout most of its history mathematics developed as a tool of science and technology, from the time of Archimedes to the era of Euler, Lagrange, Gauss and Legendre. So it should not be surprising that it "works" in physics. It was not until about 1850 that Pure Mathematics became recognised as a separate subject.

As Paul T points out, the issue was addressed by Eugene Wigner in a famous essay, "The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics in the Natural Sciences" ( http://www.maths.ed.ac.uk/~aar/papers/wigner.pdf.) However, I think this description of "unreasonable effectiveness" clashes with the reality of mathematical physics.

Take a look inside Landau & Lifschitz or any other graduate text in mathematical physics. Seeing the horrendous mathematics required to solve many differential equations (Fourier Transforms, Bessel Functions, etc), most of which have no analytical solution anyway, you might then question whether the description of "unreasonable effectiveness" is really appropriate. Even more so when you realise that these complex solutions are still only an approximation to reality since the differential equations have themselves arisen only after making several simplifying assumptions.

In Quantum Mechanics only the most simple problems can be solved analytically. Some are resolvable only into transcendental equations (eg finite potential barrier). Others are tractable only as "perturbations" of known solutions, or in QED require the summing of infinite series of terms. In some fields special tricks like Renormalization and Regularization are needed to deal with infinities.

That linear algebra applies quite well in numerous macroscopic situations of interest is due to the facts that (1) many phenomena are approximately linear over the narrow region of interest, and (2) they are only weakly coupled to each other. Then empirical laws like Hooke's Law and Ohm's Law give sufficiently accurate results without making the calculations too difficult.

The Law of Large Numbers, which is the basis of statistical mechanics, is also a great help in getting round the difficulties of solving non-linear equations at the molecular level.

Most notably in the case of turbulence, although we can write the Navier-Stokes Equation - which again rests on simplifying assumptions - nobody has yet worked out how to solve it. But even with a system as simple as the Double Pendulum, we can write its equation of motion but we cannot always predict its behaviour.

As dmckee says :

Think for a moment about what happens to proposed descriptions of reality whose math doesn't work for describing the system they pertain to. Kirchhoff's laws didn't end up in the texts because the man's name is fun to say.

When mathematics doesn't provide a solution to a physics problem, it is left out of the textbooks. Or we simplify until the problem is solvable. We concentrate on the problems we can solve, and avoid those we can't. That leaves the impression that mathematics can solve every physics problem.


So in summary my answer is that :

  1. mathematics works in physics because it was developed (in part) for the purpose of describing the world, and
  2. it doesn't actually work anywhere near as well as some people make out.

Response to The clarified Version

  1. We only treat the phenomenon as a black box when we are totally clueless about what is going on. Then we develop empirical equations - we select parameters and vary them to match experimental results. This rarely happens in physics, more so in engineering.

  2. Usually we aim to make the equations model the inter-relations of relevant variables : ie mirror the internal structure of the phenomenon. However, in solving those equations we are not restricted to mimicking the phenomenon - unless we're running a simulation. We can use any mathematical short-cuts (eg integration, analogy, symmetry) to predict the end result.

  3. Yes, we sometimes use a mixture of these two approaches : eg the Semi-Empirical Mass Formula in nuclear physics, and the various Equations of State for Real Gases. Dimensional Analysis might also come under this category : we choose which variables are relevant, and look for consistent relationships between them.

  4. I don't agree with Wigner that there is such a big mystery about the process and its success, that it is a "miracle" and that "nobody knows how it works." I am, as Geremia says, a disciple of Aristotle as Wigner is of Plato. Is it a miracle that we just happen to live on the only habitable planet within sight? Or is that a tautology, since we cannot do otherwise? Likewise I think it is no more a miracle that we've had amazing success applying mathematics to physics than that we've had amazing success applying our minds to developing aerospace, computer and communications technologies.

The success of applying mathematics has spurred us to using it almost exclusively, perhaps at the expense of other approaches. As I said above, we tend to focus on problems to which maths can be applied, and neglect those to which it can't. And we're not satisfied that we understand something until we can write down and solve the governing equation(s).

When existing mathematics fails to apply to a problem, we try or invent new tools, concepts or branches of mathematics to deal with it - such as topology, non-Euclidean geometries, catastrophe theory, fractal geometry, chaos, self-organizing systems and emergence. We forget the many failures which PhD students have had in trying to apply inappropriate mathematics to a stubborn problem.

sammy gerbil
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    To add, math is essentially a language of logic that applies to nature only when nature obeys the logic. The fundamental logic that nature obeys in the situation described is that of kirchhoff's laws. Once this observation is made you may adapt a mathematical approach to this logic in order to obtain information hidden to the observer of similar situations that follow the same laws. If the expression $1 = 1$ is logical in nature, then we know that $x + 1 = 1$ $x$ must be $0$. – Obliv Jul 11 '16 at 18:09
  • sammy, you've edited this answer far too often. Making trivial or excessive edits to a post is inappropriate; each time you edit, you should go through and fix everything that needs to be fixed. As a general rule of thumb, if you find yourself editing the same post more than 3 or 4 times, you're probably being too loose with your edits. Please don't keep editing this unless you have something that really needs to be fixed. – David Z Jul 11 '16 at 18:37
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    @DavidZ : Thank you for your advice, David, but why should it matter? Is it causing a problem? – sammy gerbil Jul 12 '16 at 02:41
  • Yes, it does cause a problem. It displaces other posts from the front page of the site and takes up contributors' time checking the content of the latest edits. – David Z Jul 12 '16 at 10:06
  • Thank you, @sammygerbil! I read your answer and Eugene Wigner's essay. And also tried to follow the links posted in the comments. It seems in the process I realized how my question can be clarified. Likely it will sound somewhat different from the way it was expressed originally. Please take a look when you have a chance. – Myk Jul 12 '16 at 17:38
  • @Nik : I shall try to respond to your new questions soon. I am not sure your update will result in the question being re-opened, because it actually asks more questions, arguably making it even broader! The advice says "narrow the answer set... isolate an issue..." – sammy gerbil Jul 12 '16 at 18:20
  • Thanks! I'd like to ask about one last detail. If we were to get back to the circuit example for a moment. Lets say for whatever reason I am willing to actually try and mimic the phenomenon instead of solving the equations using mathematical shortcuts. Do you happen to know if mimicking it is even possible -- i. e. is it within the human's brain capacity? – Myk Jul 12 '16 at 23:00
  • I'm really glad you got to write this before the question was closed. On the face of it, this question would probably fit better with philosophy SE, but one really needs to be a physicist with a philosophical bent to answer it. I like your questioning of "unreasonable effectiveness"; that's a point of view I hadn't considered. The Navier Stokes equation is another excellent example: dead easy to understand - it's a very bald and direct statement of classical mechanical conservation laws and even reads like Newton's second law ..... – Selene Routley Jul 13 '16 at 00:19
  • ... But we understand diddly squat about the pure mathematics of it and it's thoroughly horrendous to solve even numerically. – Selene Routley Jul 13 '16 at 00:19
  • @Nik: When I wrote of mimicking I was referring to your statement : "it does not seem possible to interpret/map each step taken to solve the equations in terms of the physical phenomena actually happening in the circuit." I was thinking primarily of analog modelling or computational simulation, but it could include any numerical trial-and-improvement procedure - similar to the transient response of the circuit as it finds equilibrium. This approach contrasts with algebraic manipulation and other abstract mathematical techniques. – sammy gerbil Jul 13 '16 at 01:15
  • @sammygerbil OK, got it. Maybe it should be an independent question. But what if I actually tried to follow what happens to each individual charge carrier in a circuit -- or probably a very simplified model of the circuit and with help from a computer program -- no matter how much effort that would take -- could I arrive to the same results that the equations give me? In other words, is mathematical way just much more practical? Or is it the only way possible because we just don't know enough details about the nature of electricity to make such a simulation possible in the first place? Thanks! – Myk Jul 14 '16 at 10:43
  • @sammygerbil Another alternative would be that science does know enough details about the nature of electricity to create a simulation I was talking about. But the simulation itself would be so complex that it is not possible to actually carry it out even using a computer. – Myk Jul 14 '16 at 10:55
  • @Nik : What you are describing (2 posts up) is computer simulation - ie model the forces on and track the motion of each element/particle. Is this more practical than doing an experiment? Not necessarily. Calculating the trajectory of a ball is harder than throwing it into the air. But you cannot perform an experiment on 1 billion stars in a galaxy, and you cannot wait around long enough to observe how they behave. Last sentence wrong, I think : if we do not know the detailed causes in nature (eg force laws), then we cannot possibly predict their effects (motion). – sammy gerbil Jul 14 '16 at 11:25
  • @Nik : (2 posts up) Yes, calculating/simulating the answer to some questions does take enormous resources. But the power of computers is growing rapidly, and the efficiency of algorithms also improves. If Quantum Computing becomes feasible, then it seems there would be no limitation on complexity or time. The only difficulty left will be mapping the problem onto the computer. – sammy gerbil Jul 14 '16 at 11:42