0

How do we know that certain properties are indeterminate or undefined until they are measured?

Take the example of quantum entanglement, saying that if you have two entangled particles, such as the spins of 2 electrons, and you know that their spins have to be opposite, and we measure one, so we know that the other spin collapsed into the other answer immediately, even if it's a million light years away, leading to the strange and immediate "spooky action at a distance."

If we applied Occam's razor to this situation, we could conclude that the 2 particles already had a definite spin before we measured them, we just didn't know what it was. Then when we measured it, we simply learned the spin (that was already definite) so then we knew the spin of the other particle. No spooky action, no faster than light action... Certainly the SIMPLEST explanation... But quantum mechanics tells us that apparently this isn't the correct explaination. (Too bad, Occam)

So, my question is, how do we KNOW this to be how the world works? What evidence have we seen that shows that properties such as spin are truly unknown, not just to us, but to the universe itself, until they are measured (or forced to 'make a decision' by the universe)

I have never had anyone give an answer to this... I don't want a theoretical, mathematical answer about how it makes sense if you think about it this way, or that way, I want experimental or observational evidence that certain properties truly aren't decided until measured or forced into being decided. Anyone have any examples of how we know this, instead of us guessing about it?

Tazz250
  • 45

3 Answers3

1

For single spin measurements:

Take a Stern-Gerlach spin measurement on a large ensemble A of qubits.

Step 1: Measure your qubits' spin along the x-axis. Keep only those that have spin in the positive x direction, and label the state $|\rightarrow\rangle$. This is ensemble B. You know with $100\%$ certainty that all qubits in ensemble B are in state $|\rightarrow\rangle$ because if you redo the exact same measurement on ensemble B as many times as you want, you still find all its qubits in state $|\rightarrow\rangle$.

Step 2: On ensemble B, measure each qubit along the z-axis. You will find that about 1/2 of them have spin $\uparrow$ and 1/2 have spin $\downarrow$. Take this as an experimental finding.

Step 3: Redo step 1 on a new large ensemble A', and select a new ensemble B' as before. Now do step 2 on the new ensemble B', one qubit at a time, but before you measure each qubit try to predict what result you will get. When you are done do the statistics: how many times you predicted the correct result and how many times you didn't. Rinse and repeat this as many times as you want, on as many ensembles as you want. The result will always be the same: on average you will only predict the right result about half the time. Which is no better than flipping a coin. Which basically says you cannot predict much at all, so you really don't know a qubit's spin along z until after the z-measurement, although you do know its spin along x with $100\%$ certainty. But that one is again after an x-measurement.

For entangled pairs:

Step 1 is a measurement of the total pair spin. This will give a $100\%$ certain result, all pairs will show the same total spin.

Step 2 is pairwise separate measurements of individual qubits, say along z-axis. You will find again that you can't predict the spin direction for any single qubit, but amazingly entangled pairs are always correlated the right way.

Step 3 is to replace step 2 along the z-axis by a measurement along a different arbitrary axis and look at the correlations you get in this case. Calculate what you expect by QM rules, and what should happen if some hidden classical correlations would be responsible for entanglement. Bell's theorem tells you quantum rules give a result that is very different from the classical one, even with hidden correlations.

And this is what all the hype is about entanglement and the latest entanglement correlation measurements: they just confirm that nature is quantum to the core.

udrv
  • 10,371
-1

In direct answer to the question. As I said in my answer of 24th December which seems to have been deleted.

As a quantum system is prepared [by way of the apparatus configuration] to make a prepared state, its density operator evolves deterministically, resulting in a density operator determined by its preparation history. So, prior to measurement, the density operator is deterministic.

But critically — for mixed states — the density operator [so prepepared, deterministic definite] does not have a unique history. Hence, when a measurement asks the question: what history caused this density matrix? the answer is an ambiguous one.

When I say this density operator does not have a unique history, I mean that a different history would have resulted in the same definite density operator. So this definite density operator can't tell us which of these histories it originated from. In the case of photon polarisation experiments, those different histories are different configurations of polarisers.

ADDENDA: Physics is about discovering rules that the Natural World obeys. So it's about the relationship between rules and what Nature does.

To gain insight into Quantum Indeterminacy it's instructive to consider the relationship between rules and what we witness in the Motion of the Planets. We might say the planets move according to rules layed down by Newton; or maybe, according to rules of General Relativity. The crucial point to notice is that these rules not only prescribe the unique path taken by a planet; they also deny every other path. We might say that the motion of a planet is caused by these rules, AND that every other motion is prevented by them.

But this is not how the Quantum World is. The rule followed by a quantum system as it evolves is the density matirx, or density operator. This conveys information about the full set of complimentary variables as they evolve. For instance, in the free particle, the density matrix conveys information about both position and momentum. Unlike the rules obeyed by planets, there are "paths" available to the quantum system which are not caused by the density matrix, but neither are they prevented.

And so in considering physical processes we must account for all of the following: "caused paths", "prevented paths", and "paths which are neither caused nor prevented". Mathematically these correspond to logical consequences [comprising proofs and disproofs] deriving from Principles, Postulates or Axioms; AND or PLUS, logical consistencies which are not in contradiction with those same Principles, Postulates or Axioms.

And so, looking at physics generally from this 'rules' point of view, there exist both constraints and freedoms.

Notice that this explanation is not in some new Physical Law, Principle or Postulate; the rules remain the same. No; the explanation is in the processesing of those rules.

It's not realistic to expect an anwer here that fully answers the question, And the answer is a mathematical one because the processes in Nature entail the conveyance of mathematical information.

I cannot do better than to refer readers to the experiments done in Vienna, of Tomasz Paterek et al, published under the title: Logical Independence and Quantum Randomness. And then my own book which follows up in detail on the meaning of the Paterek results. [I do not include here, its title or a link to it's website, because that would attract the deletion of this entry.]

Quote:

In the early 20th century Physics suffered two crises: first, Special Relativity and then Quantum Mechanics. Then, from 1930 onward, Mathematics suffered its own shattering crisis, after [Kurt] Gödel announced his First Incompleteness Theorem. Its consequence today is that there are statements in Applied Mathematics that are true but not provable. One such statement concerns existence of the square root of minus one. Knowing precisely what drives necessity for this number's presence in Quantum Theory resolves the question of quantum indeterminacy.

-2

No, we do not have that experimental proof because that proof would also require observing the particle. As soon as you observe, it is no more undefined/unmeasured.

The measurement at this level is actually alignment. Either the electron aligns, or it does not. That is why there are only two possible outcomes. True measurement can have many possible outcomes, but we always have just one of the two outcomes.

Universe has to know it all the time, because universe is all that is there, and that includes information about the spin. If the information does not exist prior to measuring, then, we are creating the information as a result of measurement and so universe does not need to know the non-existent information. If the information exists, then it exists within the universe (nature), and that means universe knows it.

The spin can be changing (superposing) all the time, but when you intercept it in a particular angle, it either aligns, or it anti aligns. There is no third way to show. So, it is alignment, not true measurement.

For example, you throw a rotating stick. Do you know its direction? May be yes because we can picture the stick without setting its rotation direction. We can not do that with entangled electrons, i.e. can not measure their spin without aligning/anti-aligning them in some direction. At least, we can not do that with currently available tools.

kpv
  • 4,509