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In the starting of quantum mechanics we encounter Plank's relation $E=\hbar \omega$, and from special relativity we have $Ev_p=pc^2$ , where $v_p$ is the velocity of the particle (we are assuming momentum is a particle aspect). Putting the two together, we get $$\hbar \omega v_p = pc^2 \, .$$ Now we assume that $\omega$ is a wave concept and use $\omega / k =v_w $ where $v_w$ is the wave velocity. For now we assume the wave velocity to be different from that of the particle for we don't know if the wave is the particle itself or an excitement in the probability field of the universe. That's a different topic. Here I just want to say that $v_p$ and $v_w$ might be different, or even the same. We don't know so why take risks?

Plugging the expression, we have $$p = \hbar v_p v_w k /c^2 \, .$$

Then, plugging it into the relativity relation $E^2 = p^2c^2 + m^2 c^4$ and finding out $d \omega /dk$, we get $$d\omega / dp = v_p^2v_w/c^2 \, .$$ This is the group velocity which has to be equal to the particle velocity if it has to have some meaning! Therefore, $$v_p = v_p^2v_w/c^2 $$ or $$ v_p v_w = c^2 $$ or $$ v_w = c^2 / v_p$$ which automatically implies $v_w>c$ (assuming $v_p<c$ , which is the very core of special relativity).

What is going on here? The wave velocity has come out more than the speed of light!

DanielSank
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  • @Willy Billy Williams Care to explain why? – Yuzuriha Inori May 13 '17 at 14:39
  • I erased it, that was correct. I believe the issue is that both $v_w=c$ and $v_p=c$ in vacuum –  May 13 '17 at 14:45
  • De Broglie wave travel with a group velocity which is less than c – Shashaank May 13 '17 at 14:53
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    $E v_p \neq pc^2 $ – Ofek Gillon May 13 '17 at 14:53
  • @Shashaank That's the thing... Then why does calculations suggest otherwise? – Yuzuriha Inori May 13 '17 at 14:55
  • @Ofek Gillon Would you mind to elaborate on your point a little... As you are debunking the basic formula of special relativity! – Yuzuriha Inori May 13 '17 at 14:56
  • Sorry, I proved it now to myself, this is correct. I thought you meant something else, my bad! – Ofek Gillon May 13 '17 at 15:18
  • @ Ofek Gillon It's okay... Now if you could help with the bigger picture... It will be a big help! – Yuzuriha Inori May 13 '17 at 15:22
  • see answer here https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/16063/speed-of-a-particle-in-quantum-mechanics-phase-velocity-vs-group-velocity – anna v May 15 '17 at 03:47
  • @annav I get the point they are basically pointing to... But my question is something else... What is the significance of the superluminal speed of the wave ( the phase velocity) ? – Yuzuriha Inori May 15 '17 at 03:52
  • It is the mathematics of quantum mechanics too. It is not measurable, no signal can be sent faster than the group velocity. – anna v May 15 '17 at 04:03
  • @annav No mathematics is ever nothing... Like... The negative solutions of Dirac equation was interpreted as antimatter... Likewise... Isn't there any interpretation for the superluminal phase speed? – Yuzuriha Inori May 15 '17 at 04:08
  • There you are wrong. Virtual particles are a mathematical concept, and not measurable except through the mathematical effects they have in the calculations. – anna v May 15 '17 at 04:43
  • " Isn't there any interpretation" what other than mathematical? when you make a wave packet with group velocity c, which is a kind of weighted average, some parts will have higher than c – anna v May 15 '17 at 04:45
  • @annav I wasn't talking about the virtual particles... I was talking about anti-particles... Negative energy solutions to Dirac equation – Yuzuriha Inori May 15 '17 at 11:27
  • You are extending some mathematical predictive successes, and Dirac's equation of modelling antiparticles, by giving the same power to all mathematical models. It is necessary to have a mathematical model in order to describe and predict natural phenomena, but it is not sufficient, is all I am saying with a counter example. – anna v May 15 '17 at 11:46

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What you have found is the difference between the phase velocity and the group velocity by using the de Broglie relation that is quantum mechanical and describing a wave nature. The phase velocity can be higher than c because it only appears in the mathematical manipulations.

The phase velocity of electromagnetic radiation may – under certain circumstances (for example anomalous dispersion) – exceed the speed of light in a vacuum, but this does not indicate any superluminal information or energy transfer. It was theoretically described by physicists such as Arnold Sommerfeld and Léon Brillouin. See dispersion for a full discussion of wave velocities.

No information can be carried faster than c, the group velocity.

The de Broglie relation as quantum mechanical has to be treated within those rules, where every observable corresponds to an operator. See the answer by Motl here. Particles can be described by wave packets, and they will have a group and phase velocity, and the phase velocity can be higher than c because it is not observable.

anna v
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