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Does interaction with physical slits in a double slit experiment indicate that the wavefunction is a real physical wave, as opposed to a mathematical abstraction? This question pertains to the psi ontology debate as described here https://arxiv.org/pdf/1409.1570.pdf. In summary, the debate is about whether the wavefunction is a real physical wave as the psi-ontologists claim, or simply a mathematical abstraction that provides information in the form of probabilities as the epistemologists claim. Why doesn't interaction with physical slits prove the wavefunction is a real physical wave, i.e., an ontic entity?

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    What does "physical" mean? – WillO May 17 '17 at 19:48
  • @WillO is there some philosophical distinction we can make between 'probability of existence' and 'probability amplitude' which makes the latter less 'physical'? –  May 17 '17 at 20:18
  • Like the other coments say, I think you need to clarify the distinction between physical and non physical. For instance, is energy physical or does it exist only as a concept? Take GPE. Mass, height, and acceleration can be measured, but energy can only be calculated based on other measured quantities. So if energy can't me measured directly then is it still real? (I would argue that it is, and since probability waves can reflect of a barrier and form standing waves, I'd say that qualifies them as having physical existence.) – Paul B May 17 '17 at 20:31
  • @rpfphysics : Obviously I can't answer that until you tell me what "physical" means. – WillO May 17 '17 at 21:28
  • Thanks. The question pertains to the common psi ontology debate as described here https://arxiv.org/pdf/1409.1570.pdf. Is this an acceptable way to state it: Does interaction with physical slits in a double slit experiment indicate that the wavefunction is a real physical wave, as opposed to only a mathematical abstraction? – Pat Eblen May 19 '17 at 09:43
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    Voting to reopen because the question is very clear if you're familiar with the literature referenced. (Though to be honest, the answer is "nobody knows, that's why there are multiple different views.") – N. Virgo May 19 '17 at 10:52
  • Thank you Nathaniel. True, no one knows, but I was hoping to get views on this forum on the specific question of the double slit, and it is such an important debate overall. The general trend seems to be toward the ontologists. Thanks for your support. – Pat Eblen May 19 '17 at 13:53

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"Physical" in physics is defined as "what is measurable". "meaurable" has developed to mean not only direct measurements with rulers and voltmeters, but also by using mathematical models to arrive at a set of real numbers that consistently describe direct measurements. Sometime described as "proxy" measurements .

We have a table of elementary particles. Are these particles "physical"? We see a track of an electron in a bubble chamber. In truth it is a "measurement" by proxy, where we model mathematically the electron ionizing on its track so that we see a macroscopic manifestation of its passing by proxy. We postulate that the elementary particles are "real" because of the predictability of the mathematical models we are using.

In this sense the complex conjugate square of the wave function that gives the probability for an event to happen, is physical. It is a real number and accumulating measurements with the same conditions always gives the same probability distribution, even though there are levels upon levels of modeling.

So how can a non physical entity interact with physical slits in a double slit experiment?

The wavefunction is the mathematical modeling of what happens when "electron scatters off double slit" . It is not the wavefunction that interacts, it is the electron which interacts with the boundary conditions of a double slit that can be fitted with a wavefunction which complex conjugate squared gives the probability distribution for the experiment.

When you throw a projectile in the air , it traces a parabola which can be predicted by Newtonian mechanics perfectly. It is not the parabola that interacts with the gravitational field, it is the ball.

anna v
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  • Thanks Anna. Is the electron a particle or a wave? It depends on the context in which it manifests. Waves and particles are Fourier transform pairs, so all objects always manifest as both. Whether an object manifests more as a particle or a wave depends on the manifestation conditions of specific cases. But no object ever manifests as a pure particle or a pure wave, it is always both. When a scientist sets up a measurement context that is biased to detect a particle, the wave nature of the particle is subdued, and vice versa. Even a ball is both, but its de Broglie wavelength is minute. – Pat Eblen May 19 '17 at 09:37
  • Also, consider that the parabola of the ball trajectory has a material existence in the form of space line distortions in the spacetime interval of its flight, such a parabola is a physical object in this interval. No object can manifest existence in a spacetime interval of zero extent. – Pat Eblen May 19 '17 at 09:47
  • As long as one remembers that our present physics knowledge has all elementary particles as points in four dimensional space. ( standard model https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Model ). In interactions they manifest as point particles , or probability waves, not energy/mass waves. The de broglie wavelength is not a postulate of quantum mechanics,. Like the Heisenberg uncertainty it is derivable from the mathematics of quantum mechanics and its postulates. – anna v May 19 '17 at 09:52
  • Well, an electron in a bubble chamber leaves a track. It can be mathematically fitted and all the interactions that generate the track. The same for the putative track of the ball. the molecular disturbances etc can be calculated mathematically. The parabola is just a mathematical locus. – anna v May 19 '17 at 09:54
  • Thank you. On what side of the psi ontology debate are you? Is the wavefunction a real physical wave or only a mathematical abstraction? – Pat Eblen May 19 '17 at 10:27
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    I am an experimentalist, definitely not a Platonist, i.e. I do not think mathematics molds reality. I think that reality is fitted by mathematics up to the experimental limits, when the limits change, mathematical models have to change accodingly in a smooth mathematical manner to keep on fitting whatever was fitted before, i.e. newtonian and special relativity have to blend smoothly, newtonian mechanics emerging at the limits of small velocities. etc, so psi is part of a beautiful mathematical model. – anna v May 19 '17 at 10:36
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Probability is indeed an abstraction pertaining to the occurrence of events, probability amplitude is not--rather it is a projection onto an eigenstates. That is, a wave function $\psi(x)$ tells us that the projection of that state onto an eigenstate of the $\bf x$ operator, $\delta(x_0)$, is $\psi(x_0)$. Of course, all the projections add in quadrature, so the total 'amount' in $\delta(x_0)$ is $||\psi(x_0)||$.

Now if we let all the eigenstates propagate accordingly (e.g., through slits), they all add up (coherently), to look just like it is $\psi(x)$ that is a wave of probability amplitudes propagating.

JEB
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  • Thanks, looks like we agree that "probability amplitude" must be an ontic metric. But the psi epistemologists claim that the wavefunction is only a nonphysical mathematical abstraction. See here for more on this debate: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1409.1570.pdf. – Pat Eblen May 19 '17 at 09:20
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Yes, it is physical enough. It is real enough. The specific words you use to describe that may be relevant and not the best way to ask a physics question, but your question and point are clear enough, from a physics point of view.

We get too purist if sometimes, and in truth it is often necessary to be precise in what one states or writes, but sometimes we get a little pedantic.

Eigenstates or projections or some other description of the state of the particle, such as a wave function, are equivalent for your purposes. And the fact is that they have an amplitude (sqrt of probability) and a phase. Both are real. One is how likely and the other one how to interfere (roughly; you know what phase is). It's been shown experimentally that both are real, that phase makes a difference and of course so does amplitude, i.e. the full wave function affect the results.

So, whichever words, the property (and we call it all those like prob. amplitude, projection into eigenstates, wave function, etc) is real, is physical. Not just a math concept. As you said, otherwise they would not interfere.

Bob Bee
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I think this doubt doesn't really pertain quantum physics but, as already mentioned by others, derives from a bad use of concept of "physical" and "abstract mathematical concept". Well, when you model a physical system through "abstract" mathematics that mathematics is going to interact with your physical objects (which in reality are either abstracted in the model).We don't need quantum mechanics to show this. Suppose we have a corp (think of it even like a classical newtonian corp) moving toward a slit. We don't know its exact position and velocity, we only have probability distribution (non physical mathematical notion you would say). Now when we know that the corp passed through the slit, this information impact our probability distribution, since we now know that all the position we initially considered as possible that lead to the corp impacting the wall instead of passing the slit must be refused (we get a conditioned probability p(x| it passed through the slit). So we update our probability distribution, but we still have some uncertainty on the position (the slit is not a single point) and about velocity, so our distribution will evolve expanding again like a wave generated by the slit, since the corp could be in the area within the slit, and could have different velocity (both speed and direction). So well, you can see that our probability distribution interacted with a slit. Is it physical?

Claudio P
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  • Thanks for your comments Claudio. The question pertains to the QM psi ontology debate as described here https://arxiv.org/pdf/1409.1570.pdf. Physical objects can only interact with other physical objects. Abstract objects are purely nonphysical, such as the pink elephant in your head (i.e., it's not a real physical elephant!), they have no physical or material existence, they have no physically measurable properties. – Pat Eblen May 19 '17 at 09:24