-1

It is an often mentioned assumption in physics that in going from classical to relativistic spacetime the main difference is that the absolute time postulate holding in the former is "relaxed" or abandoned as a physical premise wich leads to generalizing the Galilean group. But I wonder how exactly is this implemented mathematically since I don't think that just going to an indefinite signature or to a non-compact group of rotations and boosts by itself is equivalent to abolishing absolute time, even if the simultaneity slicings are no longer unique when the limiting velocity c at each frame is no longer infinity. One can of course say that the simultaneity slices are now just a convention and that the absolute time that enters in the Einstein synchronization is purely conventional, but still operationally they are still there and physical consequences are derived from these conventions. So is there something else to abolishing absolute time mathematically?

Edit:

I'll justify my question with the well known fact that there is a theory mathematically equivalent to SR, with the same transformations and giving the same predictions which was held by Lorentz himself (Lorentz ether theory) that uses a preferred frame and includes a non-observable ether with absolute time. I'm in no way trying to imply that it is the correct way to look at things, I'm just bringing it up to give an example of a theory that holds on to absolute time and is mathematically equivalent to SR, and uses the same trnasformations so they are not the element that mathematically prevents from having an absolute time.

bonif
  • 220
  • 1
    Time dilation, clearly, no? –  Oct 30 '17 at 23:19
  • 5
    Why isn't "Lorentz invariance" a complete answer to this question? – WillO Oct 30 '17 at 23:22
  • @WillO. It is. In fact this shows why it is so easy to get totally confused about space and time in special relativity, and how genial Einstein was. The OP should read the way in which the transformations were derived, that they are only linear transformation that satisfy that the speed of light is the same in all inertial frames. Without that simple math (but hugely rational way of stating the facts mathematically) it is not possible to think it through for most people. If the OP doesn't do that he's wasting his time and our time. – Bob Bee Oct 30 '17 at 23:37
  • @Bob Bee what you comment says is implicit in the question, thus the final interrogation, is there anything else to it? I guess your answer is that it is enough. – bonif Oct 30 '17 at 23:50
  • Possibly relevant: http://www.mathpages.com/home/kmath659/kmath659.htm – DanielC Oct 30 '17 at 23:53
  • I would appretiate higher level answers expressed in the language of group actions. – bonif Oct 31 '17 at 00:10
  • @WillO Lorentz invariance is a generalization of Galilean invariance relaxing unique simultaneity slicings, so it contains absolute time as a limiting case(c->infinity) – bonif Oct 31 '17 at 00:15
  • Hadn't read that particular paper but the concept fits with Lorentzian transformations generalizing Galilean ones. – bonif Oct 31 '17 at 00:52

5 Answers5

6

I think that there are two problems here:

  1. you can not, in fact, mathematically know that there is no absolute time in (a theory mathematically compatible with) Special Relativity;
  2. this question is posed as being about physics but it isn't.

I'll address these in order.

If it is the case that Lorentz Ether Theory is indeed mathematically equivalent to SR (which I think is true) then clearly the theories must make identical predictions for measurements, in particular for measurements made by clocks, observations of simultaneity and so on: if they did not then they could not be mathematically equivalent. Further, if LET contains a notion of absolute time (which I believe it does by virtue of its preferred frame), then the notion of absolute time can't be incompatible with any theory which is mathematically equivalent to SR.

And that sounds like the end of the story: it's a slightly surprising end, perhaps.

But it's not. Because, in order to support the notion of an absolute time, LET requires the notion of a preferred frame -- the frame which is at rest with respect to the aether. But in order to be compatible with SR, it requires that no experiment, even in principle could ever distinguish between this frame and any other inertial frame. In other words, the aether is unobservable, even in principle.

And thus it removes itself from the realm of experimental science and of physics in particular, because those disciplines deal with theories which make predictions which can be tested by experiment, and no experiment can ever distinguish between LET and SR: LET is SR with an additional postulate of an unobservable aether and a resulting preferred frame which can never be experimentally distinguished from any other frame as a result.

So you can choose to believe in LET, and hence absolute time, rather than SR but this is a matter of philosophy (I would say of religion but I think this may offend people), not physics, because there is no experiment you could do to distinguish the theories, and physics deals in experiments.

In fact this can be made even simpler: you can simply pick an arbitrary inertial frame (and in fact it does not need to be inertial even) in SR and define its time coordinate to be 'absolute time': LET is exactly SR with the addition of such a choice in fact. I think this makes it really clear how useless to experiment such a choice is.


As a postscript I think it's worth noting that physicists have done rather well over the last hundred years by making the essentially philosophical assumption that, if there is some concept in a theory which is not observable or which is experimentally always indistinguishable from some other concept, then that concept has no place in the theory or is identical to the other concept, respectively. That's why people don't like the notion of absolute time: it is not observable and thus a theory which does not contain it (SR as usually formulated with no privileged frame) seems hugely more appealing to one containing it (LET, with its privileged frame), even where those theories are formally identical.

However SR remains perfectly compatible with an absolute time albeit in a sense entirely useless to people interested in experimental science.

  • 1
    You are making a subtle distinction between what you call a theory that is not mathematically incompatible(therefore is compatible with it) with absolute time (SR) and a theory that claims philosophically to have abandoned it. Especially when you are arguing that philosophical claims that can't be supported empirically(like the existence of the ether in LET or the abolition of absolute time in SR) have no place in physics. So it looks that some unobservable and mathematically unprovable assumptions are being treated with a double standard here. – bonif Oct 31 '17 at 15:32
  • There are time dilation test in centrifuge. If absorber rotates (source in the center) there is blueshift of frequency. If absorber is in the center and source rotates, there is redshift of frequency. If absorber and source are on opposite sides of the rim, they are in relative motion, but there is no frequency shift (no measured time dilation). It is because they slow down at the same magnitude, isn't it? How come? There is relative motion, but there is no relative dilation. Does that make these theories equivalent? http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/0370-1328/77/2/318/meta –  Oct 31 '17 at 15:57
  • @Albert Are you asking why no time dilation between opposite sides of the rim? How is this connected to this discussion? – bonif Oct 31 '17 at 18:44
  • I ask that in connection with the answer. Does SR predict actual dilation of a clock? According to the SR absorber must always measure dilation of "another clock", i.e. redshift of frequency. Where is it? Well, what if there is inertial observer who momentarily coincides with the rotating one at the moment of reception? Will he see redshift then? Not at all. He will see blueshift too, i.e. from the point of view of an inertial - tangential observer clock in the center of the circumference will run gamma times faster than his own. There were articles in Nature by L. Essen in early 60-ies –  Oct 31 '17 at 18:52
  • @bonif, by the way, Einstein in his 1905 article teaches us, that from the point of view of an observer "at rest" moving clock is ticking slower. However, from the point of view of a moving observer, clock "at rest" is ticking gamma times faster due to dilation of observer's own clock. That was black on white written in Einstein's 1905 article. If we read it carefully. What do you think about that? Also - from the point of view of a moving observer, measuring rod "at rest"appears to be longer, not shorter. –  Oct 31 '17 at 19:16
  • @bonif I meant to make no claim whatsoever about what a theory of physics claims or not claim philosophically because I think such a notion is absurd: a theory of physics makes claims about the results of experiments, no more and no less. In the postscript there's some waffle which is slightly poorly worded which I will amend. –  Oct 31 '17 at 19:48
  • THis is the best answer so far and it also ties in well with what I've read of the history. I think it is pretty clear that Lorentz was awfully near to SR and theoretically he was already there. My reading of the history (and I'm not an historian) gives me the impression he was a bit like Schrödinger in 1926: unwilling to believe many of the consequences of what he postulated. Poincaré felt that Lorentz's reluctance was unjustified and that there might be something more "real" in his local time notion. Then Einstein, but more fully Minkowski, really took up Poincaré's suggestion. – Selene Routley Nov 01 '17 at 01:13
  • 1
    @WetSavannaAnimalakaRodVance That is my understanding as well. –  Nov 01 '17 at 01:23
  • In fact the " no absolute time" conjecture (Einstein referred to it as "no absolute rest") is what is postulated in SR as the principle of relativity and while the other postulate is clearly stated mathematically, this one is not so much. The reason is that Einsteind had to come up with an audacious trick to substitute the ether of Lorentz's theory, and this was the equally directly unobservable relativity of simultaneity at a distance, which mathematically included as a limiting case the absolute rest(time), in geometrical terms the unique simultaneity slicing, disguised as a sync convention – bonif Nov 01 '17 at 10:02
  • @tfb I wonder if you realize that you contradict yourself when you insist on claiming that a physical theory only makes claims about experiment results and predictions while at the same time saying that SR is compatible with absolute time and makes the same predictions as LET but it takes the philosophical stance of denying it postulating the purely philosophical principle of relativity. – bonif Nov 01 '17 at 10:11
  • @bonif: I thought I had made it clear that I don't believe a theory of physics can take a philosophical stance. Therefore I make no claim about what philosophical stance SR takes since I don't believe it takes any. Humans can take philosophical stances, mathematical models of reality can't. So, no, I'm not contradicting myself. Other people may consider that theories of physics can take such stances, but I don't: I'd consider anything which took such a stance not to be a theory of physics by definition (it might contain a theory of physics, but it is not one). –  Nov 01 '17 at 16:44
  • I see, so you are saying that SR is not a theory of physics but might contain one, right? – bonif Nov 01 '17 at 16:50
  • @tfb There is something I honestly don't understand in your argument because it is clear that for a theory of physics having or not a preferred frame is a mathematically relevant distinction(i.e. being coordinate dependent or independent). Now if both LET and SR are equivalent it either means that it is phisically equivalent for a theory to have or not preferred frames(which I doubt) or that it is not, and in this last case then both SR and LET have or not have preferred frame but one of them is concealing it. – bonif Nov 18 '17 at 11:23
  • @bonif You can think of the choice of preferred frame in SR, which results in LET, as the choice of a gauge for the theory. As with other gauge theories, the choice of a gauge has no physical significance. –  Dec 09 '17 at 12:51
  • @tfb Yes, that's what's commonly done with the rest of spontaneously broken symmetries in physics, just gauge'em away. It's always seemed to me like a bit of a cop-out. It is harder to justify it with the time translation symmetry though, as it affects the Hamiltonian, gauging something as physical as the Hamiltonian don't look right to me. – bonif Dec 09 '17 at 16:58
  • @user107153 Why is the following true?? But in order to be compatible with SR, it requires that no experiment, even in principle could ever distinguish between this frame and any other inertial frame. In other words, the aether is unobservable, even in principle. – Marios Mourelatos Dec 29 '23 at 12:55
3

Compare the eigenvectors of the Galilean transformation with those of the Lorentz Transformation.

An eigenvector of the Galilean transformation has the form $\left(\begin{array}{c}0\\x\end{array}\right)$, a purely spatial vector, with eigenvalue 1. This means that the lines of constant time (which are purely spatial) are preserved by the Galilean transformation. The eigenvalue of 1 means that lengths on this line are preserved.

Of course, an eigenvector of the Lorentz boost transformation has the form $\left(\begin{array}{c}1\\1\end{array}\right)$ or $\left(\begin{array}{c}1\\-1\end{array}\right)$, which point along the lightcone, with eigenvalue $k$ and $(1/k)$--the Doppler factors. Thus, lines of constant time are no longer preserved by the Lorentz boost transformation.

robphy
  • 11,748
  • If you cared to elaborate your answer I could even accept it and upvote it, as a one-liner, I can't. – bonif Oct 30 '17 at 23:54
  • I added some additional info. – robphy Oct 31 '17 at 00:29
  • Thanks for the effort but again this just justifies not having an absolute simultaneity, i.e. the existence of relativity of simultaneity which I fully understand. I edited my question to add some context. – bonif Oct 31 '17 at 00:34
1

The absolute time means the same and invariant time coordinate that serves as the time coordinate for all the observers. Mathematically, it is evident in Newtonian Mechanics that there is an absolute time from the Galilean transformation of coordinates between frames:

$$x'=x-vt$$ $$t'=t$$

Here, $t'=t$ represents the fact that the same time coordinate is used by every observer.

In Special Relativity, the transformation between coordinates is Lorentz transformation which read as the following:

$$x'=\dfrac{x-vt}{\sqrt{1-\dfrac{v^2}{c^2}}}$$

$$t'=\dfrac{t-\dfrac{vx}{c^2}}{\sqrt{1-\dfrac{v^2}{c^2}}}$$

Here, $t'\neq t$. This stands for the fact that the postulates of Special Relativity can't accommodate the same and invariant time coordinate for all the observers.

0

Absolute time is abandoned in special relativity, as soon as one postulates that the three dimensional space is isotropic and the (measured) value for the speed of light is independent of the velocity (or speed) of the inertial observer trying to measure it. Therefore, we need to have either absolute space and absolute time (this doesn't go too well with electromagnetism, does it?), or relative space (lenth contraction) and relative time (time dilation).

DanielC
  • 4,333
  • 1
    I know there is no longer a unique simultaneity slicing which is what your answer justifies, but I would think that not having an absolute time should imply that spacelike simultaneity planes shouldn't be used even if the simultaneity is no longer absolute but relative, because even if they are not unique and are simply attached to different observers without any of them being "exclusively right" about their calculations they still carry with them the idea of instantaneous distant action, i.e, each spacelike separated point having a simultaneous action. – bonif Oct 30 '17 at 23:39
0

First things, first: Lorentz's aether theory is not equivalent to Special Relativity! It leads to the wrong equations - the non-relativistic Maxwell-Thomson equations, rather than their relativistic version - the Maxwell-Minkowski equations. I'll address this in greater depth and - in the process - also answer your question.

Maxwell's equations can be divided into two parts. First, are the equations that are invariant under arbitrary coordinate transformations: $$ = ∇×,\quad = -∇φ - \frac{∂}{∂t},\quad ∇· = 0,\quad ∇× + \frac{∂}{∂t} = ,\\ ∇· = ρ,\quad ∇× - \frac{∂}{∂t} = ,\quad ∇· + \frac{∂ρ}{∂t} = 0, $$ where $$∇ = \left(\frac{∂}{∂x},\frac{∂}{∂y},\frac{∂}{∂z}\right).$$ Their general coordinate-invariance is made manifest, and shown, by writing them in the language of differential forms: $$ dA = F,\quad dF = 0,\\ dG = J,\quad dJ = 0, $$ with the differential forms given by: $$ A = ·d - φdt,\quad F = ·d + ·d∧dt,\\ G = ·d - ·d∧dt,\quad J = ρdV - ·d∧dt, $$ where $$ = (x,y,z),\quad d = (dx, dy, dz), \quad d = (dy∧dz, dz∧dx, dx∧dy),\quad dV = dx∧dy∧dz.$$

I can't overemphasize that they literally are invariant under all coordinate transforms. The coordinates $(x,y,z,t)$ don't have to be Cartesian, in the equations above, but can be any four independent functions of the space-time coordinates. The respective components for the fields are then picked off from the differential forms, themselves. The resulting equations will have exactly the same form.

Second are the equations that break this symmetry - the constitutive relations. For a medium that has at least one frame in which the constitutive relations are isotropic, they have the following form: $$ + α × = ε( + β ×),\quad - α × = μ( - β ×).$$ This is where we get to the crux of all the issues raised.

First, these equations are the form that are suitable for a geometry that has the following as its invariants: $$ βdt^2 - α\left(dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2\right),\\ β\left(\left(\frac{∂}{∂x}\right)^2 + \left(\frac{∂}{∂y}\right)^2 + \left(\frac{∂}{∂z}\right)^2\right) - α\left(\frac{∂}{∂t}\right)^2, $$ and $$dt\frac{∂}{∂t} + dx\frac{∂}{∂x} + dy\frac{∂}{∂y} + dz\frac{∂}{∂z},\tag{1}\label{1}.$$

The symmetries that leave these invariants fixed also leave the constitutive laws fixed. In infinitesimal form, they are: $$Δ = × - βt + ,\quad Δt = -α· + τ,$$ where $(, , , τ)$ are, respectively, infinitesimal rotation, boost, spatial translation and time translation. For the coordinate differentials, the corresponding transforms are, determined by the condition $dΔ(\_) = Δd(\_)$ and are given by: $$Δd = ×d - βdt,\quad Δdt = -α·d,$$ while for the differential operators, they are determined by the requirement that ($\ref{1}$) be invariant: $$Δ(∇) = ×∇ + α\frac{∂}{∂t},\quad Δ\left(\frac{∂}{∂t}\right) = β·∇.$$

The general transforms, written in infinitesimal form, for the fields are determined by the requirement that the respective differential forms be invariant. They are $$ Δ = × - αφ,\quad Δφ = -β·,\quad Δ = × - α×,\quad Δ = × + β×,\\ Δ = × + α×,\quad Δ = × - β×,\quad Δ = × - βρ,\quad Δρ = -α·, $$ and (lest we forget): $$Δ = × - + αβ·.$$ The vacuum corresponds to the case where $ε = ε_0$, $μ = μ_0$ and $βεμ = α$, in which case (provided that $αβ||^2 < 1$), the constitutive equations become independent of $$ and can just be written as $ = ε_0 $ and $ = μ_0$. This only leads to sensible results where $αβ > 0$. In the more general case, the Maxwell-Minkowski relations are for Relativistic moving media, and $$ is present.

For the non-relativistic case, $$ is mandatory. This extra velocity vector is what pre-1905 literature is referring to when drawing a distinction between the "stationary" and "moving" Maxwell equations, and is present in all the non-relativistic treatments, specifically including those by Lorentz, Hertz and Heaviside, not just Maxwell's. It is what the "moving" in the title of Einstein's 1905 "On the Electrodynamics Of Moving Bodies" is referring to.

Now ... to answer your question: the signature is determined here by the sign of the product $αβ$. If $αβ < 0$, then we have a definite - or Euclidean - signature. If $αβ > 0$, then we have an indefinite - or Minkowski - signature. If $αβ = 0$, then we have a singular signature. This can be further subdivided into the cases where $β ≠ 0$ - the Galilean signature (where $c = ∞$ and time is absolute), where $α ≠ 0$ - the Carrollean signature (where $c = 0$ and space is "absolute", i.e. there is an absolute rest frame) and where $(α,β) = (0,0)$, the "static" signature - which corresponds to the case where both space and time are absolute (i.e. where all speeds are absolute, as is simultaneity).

Finally ... to the matter of Lorentz and the fake news "Lorentz aether theory is equivalent to Special Relativity" meme: no, it's not. That's a myth. The equations for the constitutive law that Lorentz derived are equivalent to those corresponding to the case $α = 0$ and $β ≠ 0$, which is also equivalent to the forms written by Maxwell, after making a correction posed by Heaviside and Thomson, and written by Hertz. These are all non-relativistic - as is any theory that leads to these equations: including specifically, Lorentz's aether theory.

The equations with $αβ > 0$ are equivalent to those written by Einstein and Laub, and independently by Minkowski in 1907-1908 - the Maxwell-Minkowski equations, where light speed is given by $c = \sqrt{β/α}$.

Lorentz' equations are - up to a change in notation - identical to the non-relativistic case. This is the Rosetta Stone that lays out the correspondences between Lorentz' notation and the notation used above. I also put up one for Hertz, in one of my replies, which (if I hunt it down and find it) I will add as a comment. For Heaviside, I haven't written up a Rosetta Stone, yet.

NinjaDarth
  • 1,944