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I recently asked a question about the measurement of time, and it has become apparent that I'm really asking a set of related questions, the premises of which need to be shored up and articulated clearly, particularly against the context of processes in nuclear physics.

It appears these questions cannot be put without utmost precision.

Focussing on just one aspect of the problem for now, I asserted that clocks measure the rate of a physical process that takes place in space as well as "time", rather than measuring "time" directly and indepdendently. Adapting someone else's apt turn-of-phrase which I've stumbled over, a clock is not like a gas meter through which quantities of pure time flow.

I assume this is an uncontentious assertion, that clocks are all physically measuring rates - of something or other.

We are accustomed to the idea of clocks that keep time poorly - those that measure time at a variable rate, at the "wrong" rate, or even stop working. When this occurs, we merely consider them to be "bad clocks" - we do not consider the "passage of time" to have been impugned by the vagaries of how a particular clock operates.

However, with atomic clocks, there seems to be a widespread belief that the "rate" of the clock is physically constant and invariable.

For sure, the conversion rate between the caesium standard and the "second" is defined to be constant - but that does not establish the physical constancy of the process which the atomic clock measures. Rather, it simply asserts that whatever the variability in the rate, so too that variability will be reflected in the definition of each "second".

This was the problem with the 19th century mill owners, who defined a "full day" as a certain period on the face of the clock - and by controlling the clock, manipulating it's workings, and affecting it's rate, they could extend the amount of time that was actually contained within a "full day" at the mill.

There are, of course, a category of experimental results which are capable of establishing the fact that the caesium standard is physically variable. All the experiments done in relativity, for example, where atomic clocks go on a journey or undergo a change in their gravitational environment, and come back with different readings. I doubt that I need to rehearse the names of specific experiments to anybody here.

In the comments in my previous question, I referred to how in the 19th century, physicists were accustomed to the notion that a pendulum swing was not a physical constant. Temperature, friction, "resonant coupling", all sorts of physical variables could affect it - and there were a series of innovations designed to correct for them. But they never lost sight of the fact that these variables were present, and if the clock rate varied, it was owing to the effects of some or another physical variable, and not to any change in the "passage of time".

But I note that in the physics of relativity nowadays, physicists don't seem to talk about "clocks slowing down" (or indeed speeding up, as they can do). Instead, they talk about "time slowing down".

In other words, there has been a shift in reasoning from classical times, in which clocks were expected to be subject to physical variables, to the modern conception in which the rate of an atomic process is held to be a physical constant. Since the rate is held to be constant, then if the clock reading varies, it is then attributable to a change in "the passage of time itself", rather than a mere change in the rate of the process being measured.

Why has there been this shift in reasoning, and what experimental evidence justifies treating the rate of any physical process as constant? Or is it not experimentally justified, but instead merely represents a difference in taste (compared to the classical physicists) in how a clock measurement is interpreted?

Steve
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  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat. – rob Feb 19 '18 at 17:29
  • There is a difference between "Time" and the best clocks we have been able to make. Time (with capital letters) as far as we can observe it seems to be constant, non-changing and only going in one direction. Clocks are imperfect. There are theories that seem to say that time has changed (say in the big bang) and might be going in both directions. Interesting but as yet unproven. – ghellquist Mar 22 '20 at 21:29
  • @ghellquist, the whole premise of my argument above is that you don't observe time. Nobody has ever observed pure time. Clocks don't measure time; they measure moving parts (that is, parts whose configuration in space must be seen to change). What's more, most (dare I say all?) clocks do not go in one direction - they typically incorporate (at an irreducible minimum) some reciprocal or resonant element, and the one-way characteristics are an auxiliary artifice. It is also not the case that time appears to be constant - every known clock is capable of varying under environmental conditions. – Steve Mar 22 '20 at 22:02
  • @Steve. I believe you are making the wrong part complicated. Time (with a capital T here) seems to exist. Almost all physics (and a lot of other things) have a part of their equations that is about Time. If we measure Time with a lot of different methods, using very different underlaying phenomenons and they all agree within measurement errors, to me it seems like we are very close to actually observing and measuring Time. Until further notice, I would say that for all purposes what the Clock measures can be said to be Time. (An analogue, we believe mass exists and measure it). – ghellquist Mar 23 '20 at 09:42
  • @ghellquist, like I say, you don't measure the pure passage of time. I'm not making an argument that time be removed from equations. I have made arguments about what time actually is. As a thought experiment, see if you can conceive of a clock that does not have moving parts - that is, some crucial element which moves around in space. – Steve Mar 23 '20 at 16:05
  • @Steve I rest my case. "It it walks like a dock, and quacks like a dock -- it is probably a dock". Good luck with your though experiment! – ghellquist Mar 23 '20 at 19:56
  • @Steve - Is it implicit in your question that there is some objective truth about which of a given pair of clocks is running more slowly relative to "time"? If so, then the simple reason physicists don't think this way is because there seems to be a complete symmetry in the way the laws of physics work when expressed in the coordinates of different inertial frames, and different inertial frames may disagree about which of two clocks is running more slowly (and also disagree about simultaneity, i.e. whether a pair of events happened at the 'same time' or 'different times'). – Hypnosifl Jun 09 '20 at 19:40
  • @Hypnosifl, my (now dated) question was not about a pair of clocks - it is not a disguised twin paradox and thus your comment is irrelevant. But I'll say this anyway in response. It is unphysical and frankly the height of absurdity to claim that both clocks are running slower than each other. If both appear to be slower than the other, then it is on account of signalling delays - the single relation between the clocks themselves must be either one of equality or of inequality in opposite directions (one faster and one slower). Any given observation may of course consist of both effects. – Steve Jun 09 '20 at 20:51
  • I wasn't suggesting your question was specifically about a pair of clocks, I was just getting at the general question of whether it's implicit in your question that there is some objective truth about the degree to which any given clock is running slow. In relativity there is no objective truth, so no paradox where each is "running slower than the other" in any objective sense, each is slower than the other in the other's frame, like how if you have two non-parallel lines and give each a spatial coord. system where their own slope is zero, in each one's system the other has a greater slope. – Hypnosifl Jun 09 '20 at 23:58
  • @Hypnosifl, if there's no objective truth then you're not talking about science anymore. The only possible objective explanation of what you describe, is unmodelled signalling effects. I say unmodelled - they are in fact fully modelled by relativity, but there is an attribution error in your interpretation. The error is in treating "the slope" as representing something purely about the clock being observed, rather than a conjunction of something about the clock being observed and also something about the signal from the clock being observed (a conflation of two physical variables). – Steve Jun 10 '20 at 01:06
  • There is objective truth about many quantities in relativity, "rate a clock is ticking" just isn't one of them. Taking my example with two lines in a 2D plane (which had nothing to do with clocks except by analogy), do you agree that two different x-y cartesian coordinate systems may disagree about which line has the greater slope, and that there is no objective truth about slope independent of the choice of coordinate axes? As for your comment on clocks, each frame's calculation of the rate of a clock is based on factoring out signal delays, assuming light moves at c in that frame. – Hypnosifl Jun 10 '20 at 01:24
  • (cont.) the rate a clock appears to be ticking visually depends on the relativistic doppler equation, and it's different from the rate it's calculated to be ticking in your frame once you factor out the fact that light signals from different ticks of a clock moving relative to you had to travel different distances in your frame to reach your eyes. The rate you get when you factor out signal delays is the one given by the time dilation equation. – Hypnosifl Jun 10 '20 at 01:28
  • @Hypnosifl, two different coordinate systems may describe a different slope yes, but they may not be equally preferred. The issue also is not mere distance-based signal delay - indeed on an inbound leg, it's actually a signal advance that must be corrected, which is not attributable to the distance, but to velocity. This is observable as Doppler. A standard 2-d geometric treatment (spacetime diagram) of trajectories does not "factor out" velocity - relativity is employed specifically to model its effects. – Steve Jun 10 '20 at 02:32
  • Also I agree with you that once all distance and velocity effects are eliminated, you are left with time dilation. But in the standard twin paradox (a round trip away and back to Earth), that dilation is only sustained by one clock, and they both agree which (i.e. there is no absurdity where somehow both clocks are behind each other). – Steve Jun 10 '20 at 02:36
  • In the twin paradox, there is the asymmetry that one has to accelerate to turn around and so does not remain at rest in any inertial frame, while the other does. But you can calculate the total elapsed time on both clocks from the perspective of any inertial frame you like, including ones that disagree on which clock was ticking slower on any single leg of the trip, though all frames obviously agree the twin that turned around had a slower average rate. – Hypnosifl Jun 10 '20 at 02:58
  • And the doppler correction can be derived solely from signal delays based on distance, I can give a numerical example if you like. As for the example with different slopes, why would either of the two cartesian coordinate systems be "preferred"? – Hypnosifl Jun 10 '20 at 02:59
  • @Hypnosifl, there is no "disagreement" as to which are ticking slower in any leg. You're either back to describing the effects attributable to the signalling (not to the state of the clocks themselves) or you're employing a comparison with an invalid frame (and you say yourself, the liftoff and reversal of one twin shows that any frame which remains co-located with him throughout is an invalid frame on which to base any comparison or derive results). A Doppler correction must be based on velocity, not just distance (although I wonder if your statement on that was just garbled). – Steve Jun 10 '20 at 03:32
  • The Doppler correction is of course a function of velocity, but my point is that it can be derived just by assuming that in my frame the "real" time interval between ticks of a moving clock is given by the time dilation equation, and then considering the different distances the clock would be from me at each tick due to its motion in my frame, then adding in the different signal delays gives the visual time interval between ticks, which is different from the "real" one. So in that sense you're deriving Doppler just from time dilation + signal delay. – Hypnosifl Jun 10 '20 at 04:25
  • (cont.) And there is a disagreement as to which is ticking slower on each leg, due to the relativity of simultaneity--if the first leg starts when one twin leaves earth and ends when he accelerates to turn around and return to earth, both frames agree how much time has passed on his clock between those events, but they disagree on which clock tick on the Earth twin's clock is simultaneous with the event of the turnaround, so they disagree how much the Earth twin has aged "at the same time" that the traveling twin turns around. – Hypnosifl Jun 10 '20 at 04:27
  • (cont.) You are free to use a frame where the traveling twin has actually aged more than the Earth twin at the moment of the turnaround, not less--but this frame will then say that on the second leg where the traveling twin is heading back to Earth, he ages much more slowly than the Earth twin on that second leg, so that this frame gets exactly the same prediction as any other frame about the traveling twin being younger at the moment he arrives back at Earth (local comparison of clocks is objective and frame-independent, but instantaneous rates of ticking for distant clocks are not) – Hypnosifl Jun 10 '20 at 04:30
  • @Hypnosifl, there is no reason why the Doppler should not be derivable from the time dilation, because the two are in fixed relation (when an appropriate frame is used). There isn't any genuine disagreement, because in the standard setup only one twin has a legitimate co-moving frame throughout - the other is an invalid frame, and it's claims are false (and therefore there is no import to its "disagreement" with the correct analysis, because we should fully expect wrong answers to disagree with right answers). – Steve Jun 10 '20 at 12:23
  • Moreover, you persist in claiming that they each "disagree" as to which clock is ticking slower on each leg. In actual fact they do not. In a correct analysis, they both find that the travelling twin is the one whose clock is losing time. The naive observation that both make that the other is losing time on the outbound leg (and gaining it inbound), is the Doppler element of the observation, not the time dilation element (which is accrued only by the travelling twin). – Steve Jun 10 '20 at 12:26
  • "the other is an invalid frame, and it's claims are false" If you're talking about a frame where the traveling twin is at rest throughout, then yes, that's not an inertial frame so you can't use the rules of inertial frames. But that's not what I was talking about--I was making the point that you're free to analyze things from the perspective of an inertial frame in which the traveling twin has a smaller velocity than the Earth twin during the first leg, but a higher velocity during the second leg. In such a frame the traveling twin ages faster during the first leg, slower in the second leg. – Hypnosifl Jun 10 '20 at 12:33
  • See for example the diagram here, which shows the same spacetime paths from the perspective of two different inertial frames, one where the Earth twin remains at rest throughout, another where the traveling twin is at rest for the first leg but not the second. You could think of this as the rest frame of a third inertial observer who is initially at rest relative to the traveling twin on the first leg, but who doesn't change velocities when the traveling twin does. In this diagram horizontal lines are lines of simultaneity in each frame. – Hypnosifl Jun 10 '20 at 12:36
  • @Hypnosifl, you are free to use (what we can call) a "third frame", but there is (as you acknowledge) still no disagreement as to who ends up the younger, and whose clock is really running slow. The legs you are observing from this third frame are not the state of the travelling clock, you are observing the signals received from the travelling clock, and naturally those signals are in a different configuration again than in the Earth frame. Your problem is that you're making no distinction between the state of the clock itself, and the state of the signal you receive from it (and when). – Steve Jun 10 '20 at 12:56
  • I can't reinforce enough that the very fact of this supposedly bizarre changing of rates of aging - changing in both directions, with aging both apparently slowing and speeding on different legs - is a classical case of a signalling effect! Their ages aren't really changing rate (except for the small sustained slowing experienced by the travelling twin). You can demonstrate the very same relativistic effects with a system of sound signalling. – Steve Jun 10 '20 at 13:03
  • "The legs you are observing from this third frame are not the state of the travelling clock, you are observing the signals received from the travelling clock" Not sure what you mean by this--there is still a distinction between the rate the clocks of the traveling twin and the Earth twin are "really" ticking in this third frame and the rate that they would visually appear to be ticking to an observer at rest in this frame, with the former given by the time dilation equation and the latter given by the relativistic Doppler equation. Do you agree with that? – Hypnosifl Jun 10 '20 at 13:26
  • Also note that in explanations of relativity it is traditional to define the time coordinates that events happen at in each frame in terms of local measurements by a grid of rulers and clocks as depicted in the diagram here, with the clocks synchronized by the Einstein synchronization convention. So there'd be no need to worry about signal delays, the observer can just observe the time on whatever clock one of the twins is passing next to. – Hypnosifl Jun 10 '20 at 13:29
  • (cont) Say both twins had their clocks set to zero at the moment they departed, and the clock in the 3rd observer's grid that was next to them at this moment showed a reading of 0 as well. In the scenario from the diagram, the 3rd observer would observe that when the traveling twin's clock read 4 years, he was next to a clock in the grid that read 4 years as well; however, when the Earth twin's clock read 3.2 years, that was the moment he passed next to a clock in the 3rd observer's grid that read 4 years. That's the basis for saying that in this frame, Earth twin aged slower in the first leg. – Hypnosifl Jun 10 '20 at 13:55
  • @Hypnosifl, the analysis (of a sort illustrated by a spacetime diagram) performed from the third frame is not the rate at which the clocks are "really" ticking. It is the rate at which they would appear to be ticking (to receiving equipment comoving with the frame). This appearance consists both of the real dilation (the kind sustained only by one twin), and the signalling-mediated variation (which is both dilatory and contractionary on different legs - legs which also appear to begin and end at different times for different observers due to signalling effects). – Steve Jun 10 '20 at 14:00
  • The reason the legs begin and end at different times for different frames is obviously because the twin which really changes course has his relation to other signals changed immediately - to him, the signal received from Earth immediately changes (speaking in shorthand...) from red to blue. But for the Earth twin who is stationary, he doesn't immediately find out about the course reversal at the moment of its happening - his signals from the travelling twin only change from red to blue later, some time after it really happened, and by which time the travelling twin is well on his way back. – Steve Jun 10 '20 at 14:07
  • You talk of synchronisation with the third frame, by assuming there is a "moment" when synchronisation occurs. In fact there is no such moment, because synchronisation (via a wave medium with finite frequency/wavelength) requires an interval. It is never just a question of the instantaneous distance between moving parts - the dynamics of how much they move during the synchronisation have to be modelled, because whatever signal is sent will be modified by movement. That's what relativity does. – Steve Jun 10 '20 at 14:13
  • I said '"really" ticking in this third frame' (not in any objective sense), as opposed to the rate of ticking seen visually by the observer in that frame, which depends on the Doppler effect. You didn't answer my earlier "do you agree to that?" question about whether you understand these are distinct, and if by "appear to be ticking (to receiving equipment comoving with the frame)" you just mean a camera held by an observer at rest in that frame, that would be the Doppler-shifted value, not the "real" value in that frame defined by local observations on clocks synchronized in that frame. – Hypnosifl Jun 10 '20 at 14:18
  • Like I say, you're not making a distinction between the picture relativity describes for a given receiver, and the reality of the state of the system. The twins ages are not each swinging all over the place during the journey. They may appear to do so because of the relativistic effects on the signals by which we observe their ages (and those effects are relative to any given pair of emitters and receivers). Relativity models those effects. Your mistake is apparently in thinking that those models are describing the changing reality of the twins ages! – Steve Jun 10 '20 at 14:21
  • by assuming there is a "moment" when synchronisation occurs No idea what you mean by this, so I assume you're misunderstanding something. Einstein synchronization is just a physical procedure for setting the times on clocks in the type of grid I described, involving setting off light flashes between pairs of clocks and making sure they show the same time at the moment the light reaches them. Assume this was done long before the twin experiment, when doesn't matter, all that matter is that the clocks in the grid remain synchronized with one another in this frame throughout the experiment. – Hypnosifl Jun 10 '20 at 14:21
  • you're not making a distinction between the picture relativity describes for a given receiver, and the reality of the state of the system My question isn't about your beliefs about the "reality of the state of the system", I'm just asking whether you understand that in the theory of relativity itself (even if you think it's wrong), there is a difference between A) how fast the clocks appear to be ticking visually for an observer in the 3rd frame receiving signals, and B) how fast they are ticking in the coordinates of that frame which can be defined by local measurements on a clock grid. – Hypnosifl Jun 10 '20 at 14:25
  • The twins ages are not each swinging all over the place during the journey Not sure what you mean by this either, the 3rd frame doesn't say that anyone's age swings wildly, it says that for the first four years of coordinate time, the traveling twin's clock steadily elapses 4 years while the Earth twin's clock steadily elapses 3.2 years, and then for the next 8.5 years of coordinate time, the traveling twin's clock steadily elapses 4 more years while the Earth twin's clock steadily elapses 6.8 more years, so when the they reunite the traveler has elapsed 4+4=8 and the Earth twin 3.2+6.8=10. – Hypnosifl Jun 10 '20 at 14:36
  • @Hypnosifl, the process you describe (of simply zeroing the progression of the clocks when each receives a pulse) will not synchronise them if the clocks are not progressing at equal rates to begin with. And we know clocks are not stable under inertial movement - the experimental evidence shows such. That's why the twin comes back younger - his clock really does run slower than the one on Earth. It's not relativity that is wrong - it's your understanding of what it is describing. I agree with your A/B statement (if I've understood it correctly). – Steve Jun 10 '20 at 14:47
  • The question is what are the real ages of the two twins at any given moment. You are incapable of describing an answer that does not return to describing wide and varying disparities - in other words, a description that recognises that 3.2 years on the outbound leg and 6.8 on the return, is not the varying progression in the Earth twin's age, but the varying progression in rate at which signals about the Earth twin's age are received. You have to get it through your head that this distinction which you do not make, is a fundamental one to the majority of people. – Steve Jun 10 '20 at 14:54
  • "will not synchronise them if the clocks are not progressing at equal rates to begin with." Einstein synchronization is only about syncing the clocks in a rigid grid of the kind shown in the illustration with one another--they are all at rest with regard to one another, meaning all inertial frames will define them to have the same velocity as one another (and none of them ever change velocity), so all inertial frames will agree they are ticking "at equal rates". – Hypnosifl Jun 10 '20 at 14:57
  • That is, there is a difference between what the state is observed to be at any given time, and what it actually is at any given time - the difference potentially being accounted for by the limitations of signalling and information transfer. Nobody is compelled to subscribe to your philosophy, and the vast majority of scientists and engineers (outside a minority of physicists) reject it. It is not a philosophy on which the formalism of relativity rests, but a choice to reject a distinction which others insist is important and pertinent for the way the world is described. – Steve Jun 10 '20 at 14:57
  • (cont.) Other inertial frames will say that this procedure results in the clocks in the grid being out-of-sync, not because their rates of ticking are seen as different, but just because the clocks are moving in these other frames, so if you set off a light flash between a pair, one clock will be moving towards the signal and the other away from it, thus in the other frame the light must hit the two clocks at different times. – Hypnosifl Jun 10 '20 at 14:59
  • @Hypnksifl, the "third frame" you described was not "at rest" with respect to Earth, and I understood you to be referring to synchronisation with a clock comoving with that frame. I think we may be getting confused due to the sheer volume of text and now the intermingling of replies. The vexed issue is not of synchronising clocks which are at rest with one another, but of describing a system with moving parts and clocks which are not at rest. – Steve Jun 10 '20 at 15:02
  • "The question is what are the real ages of the two twins at any given moment." But relativity denies the existence of any objective "moment", since that'd presuppose some kind of objective truth about which pairs of events happen simultaneously. Even if you think there is such a truth, how would you determine it? Do you claim that in a twin paradox scenario the inertial twin's definition of simultaneity is always the correct one, even if the inertial twin is moving at a high velocity relative to Earth and the twin with the non-inertial path is initially at rest on the Earth for the first leg? – Hypnosifl Jun 10 '20 at 15:05
  • "The vexed issue is not of synchronising clocks which are at rest with one another, but of describing a system with moving parts and clocks which are not at rest" My point is you can describe events in other systems (like the twins) by assigning time coordinates to the events using local measurements on your clock grid, so there is no worry about signal delays. For ex. the 3rd observer can say "when the non-inertial twin's clock read 4 years, they were next to a grid clock that read 4 years" and "when the Earth twin's clock read 3.2 years, the were next to a grid clock that read 4 years". – Hypnosifl Jun 10 '20 at 15:11
  • And yes, I agree that given a 3d grid of clocks, any movement by a receiver will result in the grid of clocks appear to fall out of sync with each other. That's because the distance between the moving receiver and all of the clocks in the grid, cannot all have symmetrical dynamics. That is, the derivatives of distance between receiver and each clock, is different for each clock (or at least, to be nitpicky, and depending on spatial configuration, there are at least two ensembles of clocks, and the dynamics of any two clocks not in the same ensemble, are not the same as each other). – Steve Jun 10 '20 at 15:12
  • "That's because the distance between the moving receiver and all of the clocks in the grid, cannot all have symmetrical dynamics." Yes, a 3D grid of clocks synchronized using the Einstein procedure will appear out-of-sync in 2nd frame where the clocks are moving, but you don't have to think about that in terms of a "receiver" at a specific location, you can think of it in terms of the 2nd frame having their own clock grid which they use to assign coordinates to events using purely local observations--see the diagrams I posted here. – Hypnosifl Jun 10 '20 at 15:17
  • "But relativity denies the existence of any objective "moment"" - no, your interpretation performs that denial. The existence of a universal moment is axiomatic in science and engineering, and relativity is entirely commensurate with it. What is relatively simultaneous in relativity are the reception of signalling events. I don't claim that the inertial twin's frame is always the correct one - I actually claim the inertial universe's frame is the correct one (that is, I assert the existence of a preferred frame). That roughly corresponds to the inertial frame of the Earth. – Steve Jun 10 '20 at 15:27
  • "For ex. the 3rd observer can say "when the non-inertial twin's clock read 4 years, they were next to a grid clock that read 4 years"" - the problem is that in systems where the moving parts are moving at speeds approaching the speed limit of the signalling method, that is where clocks are being driven past each other at relativistic speeds, it becomes increasingly hard to define "next to", because any signal from the moving clock could be spread out over eons. You can correct for this with relativity, but that begs the very question were arguing about, which is what relativity is describing – Steve Jun 10 '20 at 15:43
  • "your interpretation performs that denial" To be clear, I'm not advocating any philosophical interpretation, when I say there is no objective present I mean that if different ppl define simultaneity differently there is no empirical test that can settle who's right. You are free to take a philosophical interpretation that accepts this but says there is a metaphysical truth about what events are really simultaneous, this would just be a truth wholly invisible to all possible experiments, like the hidden variables in Bohm's interpretation of quantum mechanics. – Hypnosifl Jun 10 '20 at 18:13
  • "The existence of a universal moment is axiomatic in science and engineering" How so? If you instead picture events as happening in a 4D spacetime that can be described in a variety of coordinate systems without one system's time-axis being performed (just as I'm sure you'd acknowledge that scientists are free to use different x-y-z axes to describe events 3D space and that there is no 'objectively correct' way to orient these axes), how will this mess up your ability to do science experiments in practice? – Hypnosifl Jun 10 '20 at 18:13
  • "I actually claim the inertial universe's frame is the correct one (that is, I assert the existence of a preferred frame)" It wouldn't be "preferred" in the sense physicists use the term, i.e. the laws of physics wouldn't work any differently when described in the coordinates of this frame than they would in any other. Also, I presume this mean that in the case where the non-inertial twin stays at rest on Earth for the first leg, you'd actually agree with the numbers I gave where the inertial twin has only aged 3.2 years at the time the non-inertial twin accelerates after experiencing 4 yrs? – Hypnosifl Jun 10 '20 at 18:16
  • "it becomes increasingly hard to define 'next to', because any signal from the moving clock could be spread out over eons" Not sure what you mean by this--what "signal" are you talking about? If there's a camera on one clock continuously recording footage of the 2nd clock as it makes a close pass (within a few centimeters say), the pass would go by very quickly, and anyone could later look at the footage at their leisure to see what the reading on the 2nd clock was at the moment of its closest approach to the camera, there are no long-distance signals other than broadcasting the local footage. – Hypnosifl Jun 10 '20 at 18:21
  • Actually you aren't free to use different 3d coordinates. An obvious question is whether the Earth or the Sun is the centre of the solar system. Your philosophy says the answer is a choice according to each, lacking the systematic consistency even of someone who firmly asserts geocentrism. My point is not to condemn the 4D view - it's actually an enormously useful tool - but to be clear about what it describes. – Steve Jun 10 '20 at 19:45
  • You ask *"how will it mess up your ability to perform science experiments in practice?", I suspect the terrible truth of the matter is that an incorrect view will prevent you even conceiving of pertinent experiments, and will create a ball of confusion that frustrates both the reproduction and the advancement of the science. We've known that an essentially Lorentzian view was tenable all along and entirely commensurate with relativity (Einstein himself said so). We've known since the 60s about the CMB, which was after the deaths of the vast majority of important physicists like Einstein. – Steve Jun 10 '20 at 19:56
  • "Actually you aren't free to use different 3d coordinates" I was just talking about the orientation of the x,y,z axes (which I referred to in my comment), not the motion of the origin over time. Do you think there is some kind of "objective" direction for the x-axis such that there is an objective truth about whether two events share the same x-coordinate, and anyone who orients their x-axis differently is wrong? If not I don't see how it would get in the way of doing good science to likewise deny there is an objective t-axis or objective truth about whether two events share the same t-coord. – Hypnosifl Jun 10 '20 at 20:00
  • "We've known since the 60s about the CMB, which was after the deaths of the vast majority of important physicists like Einstein" Yes, but I think you'll find that the scientists who discovered it and continued to research it didn't believe it proved that the relativity of simultaneity is incorrect, suggesting that assuming the relativity of simultaneity doesn't actually get in the way of doing good science on a practical level. – Hypnosifl Jun 10 '20 at 20:02
  • "the laws of physics wouldn't work any differently when described in the coordinates of this frame than they would in any other" - the reason the local laws of physics are the same in any inertial frame, is because the local clock itself is subject to variation induced by any movement. That's what my question (above) was all about, asking why a minority of scientists in physics have become preoccupied with an ideological belief that the rates of atomic clocks are constant, when the experimental evidence says precisely the opposite. – Steve Jun 10 '20 at 20:07
  • "If there's a camera on one clock continuously recording footage of the 2nd clock as it makes a close pass (within a few centimeters say), the pass would go by very quickly" - no! On the contrary, as speeds increase, one wavelength (the minimum quantum of signalling) becomes increasingly long and takes an increasing amount of time to be received. It doesn't just redshift, the actual location of its emission becomes smeared out along the path (because the moving clock is speeding past - it's not in the same place at the end of one cycle as it was at the start). – Steve Jun 10 '20 at 20:13
  • "Do you think there is some kind of "objective" direction for the x-axis" - no, but I also can't see anything that is pertinent to the question of how the 3 spatial axes are oriented. The problem in your analysis is not just that "events don't share the same t coord", it's that you make specific further claims about what these coordinates describe which then leads to contradiction (like "each's clock is slower than the other", where that is understood to be a claim about the relation between two local states, not about the relation between a local state and a local received signal). – Steve Jun 10 '20 at 20:21
  • "Yes, but I think you'll find that the scientists who discovered it and continued to research it didn't believe it proved that the relativity of simultaneity is incorrect" - I haven't declared it to be incorrect myself either, it's like I mentioned before, the crucial point is what exactly "events" in this schema are considered to be. What is it that is being deemed relatively simultaneous? The happening itself, or the reception of a signal which informs a receiver about the happening? – Steve Jun 10 '20 at 20:28
  • "no! On the contrary, as speeds increase, one wavelength (the minimum quantum of signalling) becomes increasingly long" Only if the source is moving away from you, it becomes increasingly short if it's moving towards you, so in my thought experiment where one clock has a camera, this would make it easy to identify the point of closest approach since the moving clock would visually shift from blue and ticking fast to red and ticking slow. This also means that in the approach phase up to the closest approach, photons could be detected on shorter timescales than if the clock passed by slowly. – Hypnosifl Jun 10 '20 at 20:31
  • (in any case, the original twin paradox diagram I linked to only involves relative velocities of up to 0.88 the speed of light relative to the third observer, the time dilation factor never gets larger than 2.125 here so it won't make much difference to the tiny time needed to locally detect individual photons at the visible wavelength) – Hypnosifl Jun 10 '20 at 20:34
  • 'you make specific further claims about what these coordinates describe which then leads to contradiction (like "each's clock is slower than the other' I already pointed out that I don't make any such claim in an objective frame-independent sense, only that each clock is slower in the coordinates of the other clock's rest frame. This is no more a contradiction than the two lines in 2D space which each use an x-y coordinate system where the x-axis is parallel to themselves, such that each line has a greater slope in the other line's own x-y system. – Hypnosifl Jun 10 '20 at 20:36
  • 'the reason the local laws of physics are the same in any inertial frame, is because the local clock itself is subject to variation induced by any movement' - That's the Lorentz interpretation of relativity, which is fine as long as you acknowledge it's a metaphysical claim and there is no testable way to determine which clock is "really" moving faster/ticking slower. Your idea that the "true" frame is the CMB one seems to be a matter of faith, there could be a possible world where there was a true frame but it wasn't the CMB frame, with no empirical differences from one where it was. – Hypnosifl Jun 10 '20 at 20:48
  • 'What is it that is being deemed relatively simultaneous? The happening itself, or the reception of a signal which informs a receiver about the happening?' The happening itself. And again, the time of the happening can always be defined in terms of something like camera footage of the happening from a grid clock that was arbitrarily close to it when it happened. As always though, there is no claim about whether a pair of events are simultaneous in any "true" metaphysical sense, only about whether they are assigned the same time in a physically-defined frame of reference. – Hypnosifl Jun 10 '20 at 20:49
  • @Hypnosifl, "it becomes increasingly short if it's moving towards you" - indeed, but then you have the opposite problem, that the signal from the stationary clock is now unreasonably long by comparison, and the moving clock ticks many times across many locations for one tick of the stationary clock. It's actually a symmetrical situation, the fundamental problem being that relative movement makes the signalling interval of one clock incommensurate with the other (which of them goes long or short is not the issue, it's the inequality of them). – Steve Jun 10 '20 at 21:01
  • "but then you have the opposite problem, that the signal from the stationary clock is now unreasonably long by comparison" From whose perspective? Not from the stationary clock's own perspective obviously, but also not from the 2nd clock while it's in the approach phase up to the moment of the closest pass, since from the 2nd clock's perspective the 1st clock is the one that's rapidly approaching in that phase. – Hypnosifl Jun 10 '20 at 21:04
  • "That's the Lorentz interpretation of relativity, which is fine as long as you acknowledge it's a metaphysical claim and there is no testable way to determine which clock is "really" moving faster/ticking slower." - I have no problem acknowledging that, the issue is that yours is equally metaphysical whenever it attempts to state a meaningful physical interpretation of the formalism. – Steve Jun 10 '20 at 21:06
  • "the issue is that yours is equally metaphysical" Can you point to a comment of mine that you interpret as a metaphysical claim? I think you've misunderstood my meaning, see my earlier comment where I said "To be clear, I'm not advocating any philosophical interpretation, when I say there is no objective present I mean that if different ppl define simultaneity differently there is no empirical test that can settle who's right". And before I got into this discussion with you I made the same point about physics v. metaphysics in a comment on the philosophy forum thread where you linked here. – Hypnosifl Jun 10 '20 at 21:13
  • "Your idea that the "true" frame is the CMB one seems to be a matter of faith" - no more so than it is a matter of faith to say the sun is the centre of the solar system. There is an objective physical reality to the CMB which is not a question of choice of frames. If a single frame must be chosen in order to describe the world in a mutually intelligible way, then it appears a reasonable candidate. – Steve Jun 10 '20 at 21:20
  • "From whose perspective?" - from the perspective of the camera which was added to the scenario. – Steve Jun 10 '20 at 21:24
  • "Can you point to a comment of mine that you interpret as a metaphysical claim?" - the one where you claim that relativity describes the real state of the other clock (i.e. when you say paraphrased "each clock is behind according to the other, and this is not a signalling delay"). Or when you say "there is no objective present". These are rank philosophical claims. – Steve Jun 10 '20 at 21:28
  • One clock is at rest relative to the camera so its light signals are the normal tiny wavelengths we encounter from visible life in everyday life, the other is moving towards the camera in the approach phase so its light signals have an even shorter wavelength. In what sense are signals from either camera "unreasonably long" from the camera's perspective, enough to make it difficult to locally determine each's clock time at the closest approach? (down to the nearest microsecond, say--obviously if you demand sufficiently tiny time-resolution even normal visible light wavelengths may be too long) – Hypnosifl Jun 10 '20 at 21:30
  • With both of those claims I immediately clarified that I did not have a philosophical meaning in mind, did you miss that? With the first I said "I already pointed out that I don't make any such claim in an objective frame-independent sense, only that each clock is slower in the coordinates of the other clock's rest frame". With the second I said "To be clear, I'm not advocating any philosophical interpretation, when I say there is no objective present I mean that if different ppl define simultaneity differently there is no empirical test that can settle who's right". – Hypnosifl Jun 10 '20 at 21:33
  • "no more so than it is a matter of faith to say the sun is the centre of the solar system" I don't think any physicist would say "the sun is the center of the solar system" in any metaphysical sense (referring to absolute space, say), if they said that phrase they would be thinking of some specific testable physical definition, like center of mass in a Newtonian approximation. And in general relativity there is no unique physically correct center, as pointed out by astronomer Phil Plait here. – Hypnosifl Jun 10 '20 at 21:36
  • "In what sense are signals from either camera "unreasonably long" from the camera's perspective" - because the purpose of the camera is to establish a synchronisation of the damn clocks! The difficulty here is that, despite the fact that the clocks are of the same design and running at the same rates, the effect of relative movement is to make them unsynchronisable. That is, any attempt to achieve instantaneous synchrony, will keep collapsing into insynchrony. The insynchrony can be in either direction. Any signal received must lose synchrony. – Steve Jun 10 '20 at 21:38
  • "With both of those claims I immediately clarified that I did not have a philosophical meaning in mind, did you miss that?" - and you're not the first accused to claim "I didn't do it". Just because you deny dealing in such claims, does not mean that you are not doing so. You can't make any claim at all about the state of any clock, without introducing an interpretation. All you can claim is that you have numbers on paper, and that alone is vacuous! – Steve Jun 10 '20 at 21:41
  • "because the purpose of the camera is to establish a synchronisation of the damn clocks" No it isn't, as I said the synchronization was only between clocks on the same grid, which are all mutually at rest relative to each other. The camera is to make a local measurement of what two different clocks (one on the grid and one in relative motion to the grid) each read at the specific event (or "happening" as you put it) of their passing very close to one another, this has nothing to do with "synchronizing" them since the result of this observation won't be used to reset either clock. – Hypnosifl Jun 10 '20 at 21:52
  • "You can't make any claim at all about the state of any clock, without introducing an interpretation" How do you figure? If numerical predictions about things like the local readings on clocks when they pass next to each other are agreed on by people with different philosophical interpretations, they obviously don't depend on the interpretations. If you want to call predicting numerical results without interpretation "vacuous", you are basically saying that the entire scientific enterprise is vacuous unless we tack on a metaphysics that has nothing to do with making falsifiable predictions. – Hypnosifl Jun 10 '20 at 21:55
  • I think I'm becoming confused about the scenario. Is the idea actually that there is a grid of clocks along the entire itinerary of the travelling twin's journey, and thus wherever he is, there is a clock (stationary relative to earth, and at a fixed distance) and a camera able to record what the travelling twin's clock reads at that location? – Steve Jun 10 '20 at 22:03
  • "If numerical predictions about things like the local readings on clocks when they pass next to each other are agreed on by people with different philosophical interpretations, they obviously don't depend on the interpretations" - but we are not agreed on what those local readings are. "you are basically saying that the entire scientific enterprise is vacuous unless we tack on a metaphysics that has nothing to do with making falsifiable predictions." - yes, I think falsificationism is itself philosophical bunk. – Steve Jun 10 '20 at 22:05
  • Yes, to define the physical meaning of time coordinates in the Earth frame we imagine a grid of clocks at rest in the Earth's frame and covering the whole volume of space where the experiment occurs, so the traveling twin is constantly passing near different clocks in the grid. To define the physical meaning of time in some other frame (say the frame of the 3rd observer who is at rest relative to the traveling twin during the outbound leg) we can likewise imagine a different grid of clocks at rest in that frame. Einstein synchronization only happens between clocks in the same grid. – Hypnosifl Jun 10 '20 at 22:10
  • "but we are not agreed on what those local readings are." Not even with my clarification about how the readings are defined in terms of local observations on a grid of clocks filling space? "yes, I think falsificationism is itself philosophical bunk." OK, just substitute "testable", there are other notions of how we test theories (Bayesian methods for example) that are probably better than falsificationism--I think they'd all still have the property that there should be possible empirical results that count as evidence against a theory (even if not a definitive 'falsification' of it). – Hypnosifl Jun 10 '20 at 22:12
  • So we have the grid of clocks arranged like a tunnel, and we have the travelling twin and his clock flying through this tunnel of clocks, and then back. What are the claims which ensue in this setup? – Steve Jun 10 '20 at 22:23
  • Again it depends on which grid of clocks we choose--whether we chose one at rest relative to the Earth or at rest relative to the 3rd observer or something else. Since it was claims about what is observed in frames other than the Earth frame you objected to, can I go ahead and assume we're talking about the grid that is at rest relative to the 3rd observer (who is at rest relative to the traveling twin in the outbound leg, but keeps moving inertially after that rather than accelerating along with the traveling twin)? – Hypnosifl Jun 10 '20 at 22:29
  • "OK, just substitute "testable"" - the problem is that science is not adjudicated purely by experiment, there are large and irreducible philosophical elements. But I don't want to get into a long-winded discussion here about philosophy of science generally. – Steve Jun 10 '20 at 22:34
  • Am I right to assume this "tunnel of clocks" setup is already itself on the move, before the travelling twin accelerates to comove with it (i.e. to embark on the outbound leg)? Go ahead. – Steve Jun 10 '20 at 22:46
  • Yes, the tunnel is assumed to have been moving inertially since a time before any of the events we want to use it for the purpose of assigning time-coordinates in the 3rd observer's frame, and the Einstein synchronization procedure was applied to it beforehand too (keep in mind that if you view the Earth frame's definition of simultaneity as the metaphysically correct one, then the clocks in this tunnel are "really" out-of-sync with one another in metaphysical terms). – Hypnosifl Jun 10 '20 at 22:51
  • So say as the traveling twin was departing the Earth twin, they were both next to a grid clock that read t=0.0 years. Then the traveling twin moves inertially away from the Earth and finally turns around when his own clock shows 4.0 years have passed; as he turns around, he is next to the same grid clock that locally reads 4.0 years as well. Meanwhile, when the Earth twin's own clock shows 3.2 years have passed, he is next to a different grid clock that locally reads 4.0 years. & when the twins reunite, the grid clock next to them reads 12.5 years, Earth twin's reads 10, traveler's reads 8. – Hypnosifl Jun 10 '20 at 22:55
  • I'm having trouble parsing this situation. You appear to say the travelling twin is ahead of the Earth twin at the turnaround (4.0 vs 3.2) rather than each claiming the other is behind. Secondly, what is the stride length between each clock in this grid tunnel, and does everyone agree on that length? If they do not agree on the stride length, then they cannot agree on the synchronisation of all the clocks in the grid-tunnel. – Steve Jun 10 '20 at 23:29
  • Are you asking about the stride length between a pair of clocks that would be measured by someone moving very slowly relative to the clocks in the grid (i.e. the distance in their rest frame), or are you asking about the distance between clocks at any given instant as measured in the Earth frame (which you would presumably regard as the 'true' distance metaphysically?) Due to the relativistic length contraction effect (which is a feature of the Lorentzian interpretation as well) these distances will be different. – Hypnosifl Jun 10 '20 at 23:35
  • "which you would presumably regard as the 'true' distance metaphysically" - no not at all. I'm not exactly clear how to reason about the matter to be frank - I assume the length contraction is also mutual to some degree, in which case it cannot be real. But what we have clarified is that this is just a more complex setup which suffers from the same problems of interpreting whether observed effects are real or not. – Steve Jun 11 '20 at 00:28
  • Sure, but aside from the issue of distances and just focusing on time/simultaneity measurements, you would presumably see the measurements on this grid as not giving us the "real" simultaneity and relative clock rates, no? Anyway, I was going into the details because you earlier said "but we are not agreed on what those local readings are"--are you saying you disagree with what I said what the local readings would be (which insofar as they are predictions about physical clocks near each other, should be predicted in all frames), or just making a point about philosophical interpretation? – Hypnosifl Jun 11 '20 at 00:43
  • "but aside from the issue of distances and just focusing on time/simultaneity measurements" - there is no valid cleavage between the issues, because which cell of the grid is where and when is crucial. "which insofar as they are predictions about physical clocks near each other, should be predicted in all frames" - no, I'm not sure you've grasped the problem of your own setup, because whilst we can agree that the Earth clock is always close to a grid clock, the question is which one, and at what time! – Steve Jun 11 '20 at 12:19
  • "or just making a point about philosophical interpretation?" - surely that has been the essential issue all along: the question of whether claims like "each clock runs slower than the other" are real effects which reflect valid claims about the local states of the clocks, or whether they are mere signalling effects attributable to the dynamics of how a signal is emitted into and then received from space. That is, dynamics which can vary independently of local states of emitters, and which can be varied both by the movement of the emitter and of the receiver (or both). – Steve Jun 11 '20 at 12:28
  • Further to what I suggested previously, if this understanding of mine can be called "realism" (specifically because it insists on the meaningfulness of local states in this context, which exist independently of the signals we receive as evidence of those states), the issue is not only that you are an "anti-realist" (by this definition), but that (unless you are intentionally playing your cards close) you do not readily grasp the distinction which this realism involves compared to your own philosophy, nor the fact that the relativity formalism is entirely compatible with both. – Steve Jun 11 '20 at 12:44
  • 'I'm not sure you've grasped the problem of your own setup, because whilst we can agree that the Earth clock is always close to a grid clock, the question is which one, and at what time!' I do understand this point, that's why I said in a previous comment 'if you view the Earth frame's definition of simultaneity as the metaphysically correct one, then the clocks in this tunnel are "really" out-of-sync with one another in metaphysical terms'. Given a Lorentzian interpretation, of course the comparison of events next to different grid clocks doesn't tell us the "real" time between events. – Hypnosifl Jun 11 '20 at 18:02
  • But hopefully you would agree that if the Earth clock read 0.0 when it passed right next to a grid clock that reas 0.0, and the Earth clock read 3.2 when it passed right next to a different grid clock that reads 4.0, then even though this doesn't mean the Earth clock ran slower in any "real" sense, these local facts are still objective realities in themselves, there's no sense in which signal delays would lead different observers to disagree on them (as they observations can be made with cameras on the grid clocks and the footage broadcast, and everyone'll see the same images on the footage). – Hypnosifl Jun 11 '20 at 18:15
  • 'if this understanding of mine can be called "realism" (specifically because it insists on the meaningfulness of local states in this context' What do you mean by "meaningfulness", exactly? I would say local states, like what two specific clocks read when they pass next to each other, are "meaningful" in the sense that they are objective, frame-independent physical facts. I just don't think there is an empirically testable objective fact about non-local comparisons of the time between diff. events far apart in space and time, though there could be an untestable metaphysical truth about this. – Hypnosifl Jun 11 '20 at 18:16
  • 'But hopefully you would agree that if the Earth clock read 0.0 when it passed right next to a grid clock that reas 0.0" - that begs the very question! For there to be any such measurement, you're going to have to handle signals from both the local clock and from the moving grid. The question then returns, if you receive a zero reading from a clock on the moving grid, where and when was that zero signal emitted? You're presupposing that it must be emitted adjacent to the local clock in time and place (because they were being driven past each other closely). (1/2) – Steve Jun 11 '20 at 20:05
  • The problem is that one cycle of the moving signal cannot be synchronised with the local signal, because they are of incommensurate intervals. That is not because the clocks are malfunctioning or of incommensurate design - it's because of the dynamics of the changing locations at which the signal is emitted and received. Relativity quantifies and corrects for that incommensurability allowing systematic communication, but the question between us is how that incommensurability arises in the first place. (2/2) – Steve Jun 11 '20 at 20:16
  • I suspect you fundamentally overlook the fact that clocks (and signals from them) must be measured over intervals and not at instants (so a moving clock must be measured across a range of locations), and also that synchronisation depends on clocks which proceed at equal intervals. Trivially stated, you can't synchronise clocks that don't keep the same time. The problem in relativity (as to the symmetric effects on timekeeping, not the asymmetric ones) isn't that the clocks aren't keeping the same time, it's that's the dynamics prevent synchronisation of the signal between emitter and receiver. – Steve Jun 11 '20 at 20:22
  • I'm not sure what you mean by "one cycle" of the moving clock's signal being "synchronized" with the Earth clock's signal. I'm just talking about the two clocks reading the same time of 0.0 years in a still photograph taken at the moment of closest approach when they are a very small distance (say a few centimeters) apart. I suppose you can say that any photodetector requires an exposure time at least as long as the period of the photons it detects, but for visible light this is a less than a picosecond, there's no need to assume clocks with that level of precision in their readings. – Hypnosifl Jun 11 '20 at 20:24
  • "I would say local states, like what two specific clocks read when they pass next to each other, are "meaningful" in the sense that they are objective, frame-independent physical facts" - but you aren't reading the states, you're reading a (speed-limited) signal which carries information about those states. Therefore, the peculiarities of how the signal behaves, can potentially misrepresent the states (including the exact times at which any state prevailed). (1/2) – Steve Jun 11 '20 at 20:29
  • That postulation of a signal which can potentially be modified or manipulated independently of the state of its emitter, is not metaphysical, it's "reality". It still has metaphysical aspects in that the very existence of such local states is postulated, when all we can actually observe are signals concerning them, but outside a minority of the physics community who obsess about "observations", the rest of the world not only do not have a problem with the metaphysical postulation of realism, they insist upon its use because its how an objective reality is described. (2/2) – Steve Jun 11 '20 at 20:36
  • "I suppose you can say that any photodetector requires an exposure time at least as long as the period of the photons it detects, but for visible light this is a less than a picosecond, there's no need to assume clocks with that level of precision in their readings." - hold that thought about exposure time, because what happens when the photo reads 0 on the local clock, and multiple different seconds blurred on the moving clock (or symmetrically, multiple on the local and 0 on the moving). Now the location of the clock showing multiple, is no longer certain. (1/2) – Steve Jun 11 '20 at 21:00
  • The point I'm trying to illustrate by focussing on one cycle of the signal, is to establish that the fact of the signal taking an time interval convey, means it also (when dealing with a moving emitter) takes a space interval to convey too. (2/2) – Steve Jun 11 '20 at 21:06
  • 'hold that thought about exposure time, because what happens when the photo reads 0 on the local clock, and multiple different seconds blurred on the moving clock' But as I said, if the clock's minimum time interval isn't less than a picosecond, and the exposure time is shorter than the minimum time interval the clock measures, there wouldn't be any blurred image for a still photo taken at visible light frequencies. Are you disagreeing with this or just worrying about the ontological question of how we can call local events "objective" if they're not defined to infinite precision? – Hypnosifl Jun 11 '20 at 22:10
  • But the larger the resolution of the clock being observed, the larger the margin as to where the grid can be located when it's clocks read zero - there is a full light-second's length of imprecision. I'm not arguing that the inaccuracy makes the situation non-objective - I'm emphasising that it is in these very inaccuracies that the different observations in relativity arise. By having a clock interval that is relatively larger than the exposure interval, all you do is enlarge the window of possible places (i.e. moving clocks) that zero could have been signalled from. (1/2). – Steve Jun 11 '20 at 23:42
  • If you compensate by ramping up the displayed clock rate (so that picoseconds are displayed, not just whole seconds) to try and achieve synchrony with the exposure rate (i.e. a condition which creates the least possible uncertainty as to the location), then you return to the issue that the exposure rate cannot be commensurate with both clock rates, and no matter which one you optimise for synchrony, that leaves a margin of imprecision for the other - and that's the margin in which the "other" camera on the grid side, if set up completely symmetrically, will claim a different result. (2/2) – Steve Jun 11 '20 at 23:53
  • I'm sure this "grid" is complicating the discussion however. The essential point is simply that you cannot synchronise and keep synchronised the signals from two identical clocks that are moving relative, because the intervals of the signals are made different by the movement. If they are moving apart, the non-local one will always seem to proceed slowly - if moving closer, the non-local one will appear to speed. And if one accelerates to reverse course, then neither will agree as to the respective length of the legs, because one is local to the acceleration, the other remote. – Steve Jun 12 '20 at 00:13
  • 'But the larger the resolution of the clock being observed, the larger the margin as to where the grid can be located when it's clocks read zero - there is a full light-second's length of imprecision.' I don't see why that should be true, where do you get that number? What are you assuming for things like the relative speed of the clocks (still 0.6c as in my example?), the time-resolution of the clocks, and the exposure time needed for the camera to get one image? Seems to me any uncertainty in position would be roughly equal to the clock's speed times the exposure time. – Hypnosifl Jun 12 '20 at 00:55
  • The uncertainty in position is not just a function of clock rate and exposure time, but also of the amount of movement between the sources. Ramping up the clock rate and ramping down exposure time does not reduce the uncertainty owing to movement, because you're ramping things symmetrically on both sides (to preserve the comparable local conditions), so the discrepancy between the two sides ends up remaining the same - one clock signal still ends up faster or slower by the same factor, and it's the factor that counts for maintaining (or breaking) synchrony. – Steve Jun 12 '20 at 01:14
  • Are you talking about quantum uncertainty or some other type? Either way I don't see why the clock rate would matter in most cases, the position of a clock moving at 0.6c shouldn't be any more uncertain in a photo with a given exposure time than the position of any other object moving at 0.6c (a rock, say). The only way the clock resolution would matter is if the digits change even faster than the exposure time, if not you'll just get a still, non-blurred image of one particular reading on the clock. – Hypnosifl Jun 12 '20 at 01:22
  • "The only way the clock resolution would matter is if the digits change even faster than the exposure time" - but if the digits change slower than the exposure time, then there is uncertainty as to the time and position which is proportional to the discrepancy. Let's say you put rocks instead of clocks on the grid - i.e. the displayed "digits" don't change at all - what have you proved by capturing the image? Nothing, because you don't know from looking at the picture when the picture was taken. You don't seem to grasp the importance of correlating the ticks to the exposures. – Steve Jun 12 '20 at 01:42
  • "Are you talking about quantum uncertainty" - not as such, no, although like that principle, this does concern the limitations of a wave-based system. – Steve Jun 12 '20 at 01:49
  • 'Let's say you put rocks instead of clocks on the grid - i.e. the displayed "digits" don't change at all - what have you proved by capturing the image?' I was suggesting replacing the moving object with a rock, not the clock on which the camera is mounted. If a rock flies by that camera, it can use its own timestamp for assigning a time to the rock passing next to it. Of course there'll be some uncertainty in the exact time that close pass happened depending on the clock's resolution, but you had suggested position uncertainty. And that time uncertainty doesn't depend on the speed of the rock. – Hypnosifl Jun 12 '20 at 03:28
  • "If a rock flies by that camera, it can use its own timestamp for assigning a time to the rock passing next to it." - you mean a timestamp on the rock (more like the indexes painted onto lamp-posts)? Or the timestamp on the camera itself? Either way, you've defeated the purpose of the grid. I'm sure better men than ourselves have wrestled with this problem with more than 400 characters available. My purpose here is not to defeat relativity - it is to explain why a classical wave medium (any such medium, including sound) necessarily entails the effects that relativity describes. (1/2) – Steve Jun 12 '20 at 11:19
  • Einstein himself was clear that relativity was not incompatible with an "aether" - that is, a medium whose behaviour is described classically - it merely established that motion in that medium could not be detected by any local means (because the local laws of physics are always the same). Furthermore, since the local laws of physics are always the same, there is no preferred frame, and local laws can always be fully described by using a local frame. The problem with signalling between moving parts is that it's inherently non-local - its very purpose is to mediate between localities. (2/2) – Steve Jun 12 '20 at 11:35
  • And to be clear about my terminology, a "locality" is any arrangement of parts in which nothing is moving relative to each other. Whenever things move (and notwithstanding the unimportance of relativity at low speeds), relativistic effects emerge and those parts are no longer all in the same "local frame". The laws that govern the interaction of moving parts are (taken as a whole) non-local laws - relativity is the mapping between what is the local and the non-local, and there is no principle which says a "preferred frame" for such (which Lorentzian interpretations entail) does not exist. – Steve Jun 12 '20 at 11:44
  • 'you mean a timestamp on the rock (more like the indexes painted onto lamp-posts)? Or the timestamp on the camera itself?' On the camera. 'Either way, you've defeated the purpose of the grid.' What do you think the purpose of the grid is? I think it's just to assign time-coordinates to events in the grid's rest frame, doing so in a local way that doesn't depend on long-distance signals. If the clocks are arranged along measuring rods, as in the diagram, we can say something like "the rock passed the 5-meter mark when the grid clock there read 0.000352 seconds". – Hypnosifl Jun 12 '20 at 13:14
  • And it works the same if the object moving relative to the grid is itself a clock, then you can say something like "the clock A passed the 5-meter mark when the grid clock there read 0.000352 seconds and clock A read 0.000071 seconds". 'it is to explain why a classical wave medium (any such medium, including sound) necessarily entails the effects that relativity describes.' Not all effects, surely? There needn't be any time dilation of moving clocks in classical physics for ex., in a twin paradox type scenario both clocks would remain synchronized when they reunite and compare times locally. – Hypnosifl Jun 12 '20 at 13:17
  • "What do you think the purpose of the grid is?" - the purpose of the grid as I understood was to try and eliminate the "air gap" between two clocks that are not stationary relative to one another. Since the travelling twin is eons away, if we (i.e. you) introduce a grid of clocks, then we establish a chain of synchronisation all the way back to the Earth, and clocks in the vicinity of the Earth then represent equivalently the reading on the clock carried by the travelling twin. (1/2) – Steve Jun 12 '20 at 13:35
  • The problem in my view is that not only does the grid introduce inessential complexity to the setup (perhaps, the confusion this sows is how the device avoids meeting its fate), but as soon as it is constructed and on the move, it already takes for granted the very things in question. The synchronisation of the grid presupposes a known stride length between each clock - for you cannot synchronise clocks by non-instant signals, if their distance apart from each other is in question. But since both parties disagree on that stride length, the scheme is impugned by lack of agreed synchrony. (2/2) – Steve Jun 12 '20 at 13:41
  • "we can say something like "the rock passed the 5-meter mark when the grid clock there read 0.000352 seconds" - this too presupposes the very thing in question, for was it at the 5 meter mark where the signal from the clock was emitted, or was it emitted further back towards the 4 meter mark? If everything were stationary, the question would be absurd, but since the grid is moving relative to the camera, it's actually necessary that wherever the camera looks, is not the spot from which the signal is emitted by the grid, because the grid emits the signal over a range of space. (1/2) – Steve Jun 12 '20 at 13:48
  • That is, whereas we normally look at a camera image, and extrapolate straight lines to a point into the depth of field (in accordance with normal optical principles) to argue that wherever the camera is looking, is the place where the signal originated, that ceases to be the case when you're dealing with a moving emitter of waves. It doesn't originate from such a point because the wave is emitted over a time interval, and if the emitter is moving in space then emission occurs across multiple places in space as well as time. It is no longer valid to say it happened in front of the camera. 2/2 – Steve Jun 12 '20 at 13:56
  • "Not all effects, surely? There needn't be any time dilation of moving clocks in classical physics" - yes! It does occur in all wave mediums, if you implement the clock in terms of a local exchange of signals through the wave medium (i.e. the analogy of a "light-clock" with a resonant element which continually passes back and forth through the medium). If you implement a "sound clock" to keep time, you get the asymmetric time dilation of the moving twin quantified by relativity, but for Lorentzian reasons (that the speed of sound is not isotropic in all directions). (1/2) – Steve Jun 12 '20 at 14:01
  • Obviously, the analogy with sound is not total in all respects, but it can neatly replicate the time dilation elements, when the clocks employed are themselves forced to employ the medium in question as part of their normal operation. Not only do both sides in the sound analogy claim the other is losing time on the outbound leg and regaining it on the inbound, but they also disagree on the length of the legs, and one really does return "younger" with a clock that has progressed less. (2/2) – Steve Jun 12 '20 at 14:10
  • The main obstacle amongst many physicists, in my view, is their axiomatic insistence that the rates of atomic clocks do not vary. Practically speaking, experimental evidence proves that atomic clocks do vary under movement, but this is waved away by the explanation that "the clocks took a different-length path through spacetime", despite that description (shorn of its infelicitous jargon) being equivalent to the statement that "the clock moved through space and it's rate ran slow". – Steve Jun 12 '20 at 14:18
  • 'this too presupposes the very thing in question, for was it at the 5 meter mark where the signal from the clock was emitted, or was it emitted further back towards the 4 meter mark?' What "signal from the clock" are you talking about? You are responding to a scenario where a camera that's mounted to the clock takes a picture of a rock as it passes some negligibly small distance from the camera, with the camera hooked up to the clock in such a way that the clock's reading at the moment the photo is taken shows up as a timestamp. The clock would just be mounted permanently at the 5 meter mark. – Hypnosifl Jun 12 '20 at 15:58
  • 'If you implement a "sound clock" to keep time, you get the asymmetric time dilation of the moving twin quantified by relativity' You would get a slowing down of a sound-clock (one based on bouncing sound waves back and forth between reflectors to serve as ticks), though I don't think the actual time dilation equation would be the same. But in non-relativistic classical physics it's possible to construct other types of clocks (mechanical clocks) that wouldn't dilate. In relativity the effects apply to all clocks, making it impossible to determine the rest frame of any 'medium' experimentally. – Hypnosifl Jun 12 '20 at 16:01
  • I'm confused about which side the meter markings are on. Are they on the home side or the grid side? I can't see the point of having them on the home side (i.e. the same side as the camera which snaps the rock). In truth the scenario has undergone so many modifications now, with elements now as diverse as rocks and timestamped images, and without diagrams for reference, that I'm not sure we're still singing from the same hymn sheet. (1/2) – Steve Jun 12 '20 at 16:15
  • Bear in mind, my argument here is not against relativity or any of its predictions. It was to emphasise how some of the effects you describe arise straightforwardly from the nature of a wave-based signalling medium. (2/2) – Steve Jun 12 '20 at 16:18
  • "But in non-relativistic classical physics it's possible to construct other types of clocks (mechanical clocks) that wouldn't dilate. In relativity the effects apply to all clocks, making it impossible to determine the rest frame of any 'medium' experimentally." - but that was precisely the issue Lorentz had, wasn't it? Are we dealing with a classical medium that is simply undetectable (at least by any experiment conceived thus far), or are we dealing with no such medium? (1/2) – Steve Jun 12 '20 at 16:24
  • The scientific evidence does not determine the question - the only distinction is whether we assume the existence of that medium (since it's presence is capable of fully explaining the effects we see, it is consistent by analogy with the workings we see in other physical systems where the medium's presence is independently verifiable, and relativity is fully consistent with it), or do we postulate (without being forced to do so by any scientific evidence) some sort of special physical philosophy that has no other known application and gives "just so" answers to all questions asked of it? (2/2) – Steve Jun 12 '20 at 16:32
  • In sum, whereas the distinction between sound and light is that we have alternatives to sound clocks, but we do not have alternatives to light clocks, but the pair of them are describable by broadly the same conceptual framework and appear to have the same features, then my first resort is simply to accept the undetectability of a light medium. It is not to embark on some philosophical flight of fancy about how else I can seem to make sense of the situation by a variety of non-classical postulates which are unique to this one area of science. – Steve Jun 12 '20 at 16:41
  • The fact that the light medium is not known to be detectable is not a significant problem for me, because it is not a philosophical extravagance - it is a neat and uncomplicated reuse of familiar concepts that arise from analysing wave-based systems where the medium is independently detectable. Why it should have to be independently detectable before it is taken seriously by physicists, rather than its existence simply inferred by its explanatory power, and by the existence of similar natural systems which are tractable to science, I'm not quite clear. – Steve Jun 12 '20 at 17:08
  • Meter markings on the grid side are always used to assign position coordinates in the grid frame. I don't think adding an assumption of time stamps really adds to the complexity, you could equally well imagine the camera mounted to the grid clock is positioned in such a way that the picture shows the reading on the clock it's mounted to along with the object (whether a rock or a non-grid clock) passing right next to it. The point is that the position and time coordinates of the event of something passing by are determined by a local clock and measuring rod at rest relative to the camera. – Hypnosifl Jun 12 '20 at 18:26
  • 'but that was precisely the issue Lorentz had, wasn't it? Are we dealing with a classical medium that is simply undetectable (at least by any experiment conceived thus far), or are we dealing with no such medium?' I've said a few times in this discussion that I have no problem with a Lorentzian interpretation as long as it's understood to be a philosophical supposition that's not testable. But I think an alternate philosophical interpretation based on an ontological assumption of a 4D spacetime geometry with no preferred present (what philosophers call the 'B theory of time') is also coherent. – Hypnosifl Jun 12 '20 at 18:29
  • I'm not criticising the use of the grid per se (as a gambit), I'm simply saying it has now been retailored to the point where I'm no longer sure I have a coherent picture of its elements, the roles they are performing, the different measurements made within each frame, or even what (and whose) claims the setup is supposed to establish or refute. I think if we're to proceed any further with it, the whole situation would have to be reconstructed in a coherent form with supporting diagrams and the arguments rehearsed from foundation (which this format does not lend itself to). – Steve Jun 12 '20 at 19:36
  • "I've said a few times in this discussion that I have no problem with a Lorentzian interpretation as long as it's understood to be a philosophical supposition that's not testable." - agreed. The interpretation is the only thing at stake here. I should add that it is no less testable than the interpretation you contend for. – Steve Jun 12 '20 at 19:48
  • My original question concerns the fact that, for your interpretation to be tenable, the constancy of atomic clocks must be postulated axiomatically. Additionally, some sort of place in time to which things go, a place which is defined individually for every possible speed differential between any two things, and which allows each clock to be behind the other, must be proposed (a concept I really can't make sense of). I asked in terms, what is the justification for this, when the Lorentzian approach will do (with no oddities, no loss of objectivity, and identical predictive power)? – Steve Jun 12 '20 at 19:57
  • So in my view, this B theory of time is utterly unphysical and extravagant. It seems to make sense in its own terms purely in the realm of thought-stuff, but it postulates an independent fourth dimension, movement in which is presumed to be detected and metered by clocks, but that independence is not supported by the practical reality of how clocks work. And the net result, the net predictive power, is the same as if you just describe it all in Lorentzian terms. – Steve Jun 12 '20 at 20:08

5 Answers5

10

I think I see the heart of your question. It has nothing to do with relativity in fact. Let me attempt to rephrase.

In the past (say 1700’s) we had pendulum clocks to keep time. We said that every tick of the clock was one second. However, sailors at the time realized that if you put a pendulum clock on a boat it would run "fast" or "slow" because the rocking of the boat or temperature variations would alter the physics of the pendulum. How could they tell it was running fast or slow? They could bring the clock back to Greenwich where it was originally set and notice that their clock ticked 100,000 times whereas the Greenwich clock ticked 120,000 times. This was easily explained by what happened to the clock belonging to the sailors on the boat.

Now, your concern is that when people talk about atomic clocks (the modern day "standard" for time-keeping) they do not mention deleterious effects such as "rocking of the boat" that may cause the atomic clocks to run fast or slow. Your concern is that the atomic clock might be undergoing "rocking" but we just sweep it under the rug and just say that "time" is running fast or slow. The question is why the shift in attitude? Previously we recognized physical mechanisms that could alter how the clock runs and admitted they make the clock worse, but now we just cover it up by saying time is running fast or slow. What gives?

I hope the above was an accurate restatement of your question. Let me now provide my answer.

1) First, the title of this post is "What do clocks measure?". You have suggested that clocks measure rates. I think this is incorrect. I believe that clocks measure a NUMBER of events. A pendulum clock measures how many times the pendulum reaches its right extremity. A quartz oscillator measures how many times its tines reache the extremities of their motion. An atomic clock measures how many times the electron wavefunction revolves around the nucleus*. What are rates then? Well, we have defined the second to be something like: Whenever the Cesium clock in Boulder ticks 9,192,631,770 times we say one second of time has passed. Thus, we can now say (based on the definition) that the Cesium clock ticks at a rate of 9,192,631,770 ticks per second. The fundamental measured quantity is a number of events, the defined quantity is a time, and the derived quantity is a rate.

2) Ok. But, just like on the boat, can't deleterious effects affect how quickly the Cesium clock ticks? That is, how much "time" it takes between two ticks might change if the Cesium clock is "rocking". How come I don't hear about that sort of thing? Well, you probably just haven't heard about that sort of thing because you aren't immersed in the field of precision measurement or atomic physics. Atomic physicists in fact worry about things that mess up the ticking rate of their atoms all of the time. Things that can mess up the ticking rate are electric/magnetic fields (cause atoms to tick faster or slower), collisions with other atoms etc. One problem with atomic clocks is that blackbody radiation emitted by the room temperature vacuum chamber in which the atoms reside causes the atoms to change their ticking frequency. Because of all of this it is recognized that the second is defined to be the amount of time it would take a Cesium atom to tick 9,192,631,770 times if it was at 0 K, in 0 magnetic field, in 0 electric field with no external influences. However, physicists realize that this is impossible to achieve in the lab. Nonetheless, there are technological benefits to attempting to do the best they can. So they perform a certain experiment and measure Cesium ticks in a particular way the best they can and report to the world whenever their cesium ticks. Physicists are continually trying to build better clocks that have lower uncertainties so that they can study ever more precise physics and explore new technologies.

3) If clocks can always have some error than what is the benefit to having clocks at all? Well, even though clocks are always wrong to some degree they are also right to some degree. For example, my friend can say to me: "Hey let's meet at the bowling alley after the quartz oscillator in MY watch ticks 34,875,329 times!" and even if he goes to his house (which he keeps at 65 F) and I go to my house (which I keep at 70 F) and drop MY watch in the sink (it is waterproof) I can still pull it out and have faith that once my watch ticks 34,875,329 times my friend’s watch will ALSO have ticked the same amount so I can get to the bowling alley and not annoy him by being 5,328 ticks late!**

The point of making better and better clocks is for humans to be able to have such faith in each other's time keeping devices on ever finer and finer time scales. For example, if the physicists at the atomic clock in Boulder, Colorado do a good job keeping their clock running (with minimal magnetic fields etc.) and the physicists at the atomic clock Paris France do a good job at their clock then the two parties can have faith that even after the passage of a long amount of time***** they will still have counted the same number of ticks of their clocks. This has practical implications when those clocks are used to synchronize different clocks all around the world including those used for satellite GPS and running the global stock markets, both of which rely on measuring very very small differences in time.

4) And another note reminding us of the sailors. Let's ask again how the sailors knew their clock was running fast or slow (other than seeing their crewmates kick the pendulum a few times). They would notice that the sun would not rise when they expected it to according to their clock or they would bring their clock to Greenwich and compare it there. In both cases they are comparing their clock to another oscillatory physical phenomenon. The key is that they are comparing their clock to a phenomenon which is more "stable"*** than the one on their ship. However, these two clocks are also of course susceptible to clock fluctuations. If the temperature changes in Greenwich that would affect their pendulum clock as well, just not as much as the smaller pendulum on the boat beset by the harsh maritime environment.

In addition to stability it is important that a clock standard can be recreated elsewhere and give the same results. That is illustrated by the presence of similar Cs atomic clocks around the world. The beauty is that, if you can control the environment well enough, a Cs atom in Boulder has the same ticking frequency as a Cs atom in Paris. If everyone can then synchronize to these and other clocks in the international system of atomic clocks then we can be confident that we can all agree on the time to a part in $10^{-16}$ or so and this can be useful technologically. As you have identified however, there IS a limit to how precise we can be. This is known and recognized and people are always working to improve this limit.

edit: One more note here. Since clocks measure number of events happening, and time is derived from that measurement, in some sense if the clock at Greenwich slows down or the atomic clock at Boulder slows down it is correct to say that time itself is slowing down because that it how time is defined. However, you are correct to point out that we must recognize this is happening because of undesirable physical effects in our apparatus. That is why we recognize that these clocks only have a finite level of precision and we recognize some level of uncertainty in definition/measurement of time. Building a better clock means pushing down this uncertainty.

5) There is a dimension of your question which does involve special relativity but I think that is in fact the less interesting point. In some sense we can say that relativistic effects are just another external effect that causes the clock to tick differently than the clock in Boulder. What if the clock in Boulder is experiencing special relativistic effects? Well, we can still compare it to the clock in Paris and get results good to some precision. Eventually, to build a better clock, perhaps such effects will need to be controlled. Some effects which limit atomic clocks (cause them to tick differently) now are: Atomic collisions, Blackbody radiation, the lasers used to measure the atoms, stray magnetic fields etc. Someone closer to the atomic clock field could do a better job than me at producing this list.

6) I highly recommend reading the popular science/history book "Longitude" by Dava Sobel about the need for and invention of precision chronometers for naval navigation in the 18th century to get a handle on practical reasons WHY we want a precise clock and what we mean by a precise clock. Perhaps after understanding some concrete real-world situations you will have a better view on some of your abstract questions.

edit2: 7) Important note on clock stability. When I say a clock is stable what do I mean? Well say I have two wristwatches built which were manufactured one after another on the assembly line. If I synchronize them today I can then watch them for a year and see how far off they get. If they get off by 30 seconds in a year then I can calculate a fractional discrepancy. $$ \frac{30 \text{ s}}{1 \text{ yr}}\approx 10^{−6} $$ I don't know which clock is more correct (accurate), but I know that they agree to a part per million. That is they have a relative stability of $10^{-6}$. Now the standard Cs atomic clocks are good to a part in $10^{16}$ or so if they are compared against eachother**** Again, we do not know which clock is more correct, but we can say that the atomic clocks are more stable than the wristwatches because they can agree with each other for a longer amount of time

*This is a bit of atomic physics here, but the atoms used in atomic clocks can be thought of as being exactly like pendulums. It is a system which is physically oscillating in space. This can be a topic for another question.

**Though as we all know, having an accurate watch is not a guarantee that one won't be late! Such a guarantee requires, in addition, a certain amount of personal responsibility!

***Where stability can be defined in a technical sense by comparing the ticking rate of one clock to a clock which is more physically controlled or by comparing the ticking rate of two clocks if there is no "better" clock around. See section 7)

****The most stable atomic clocks reported in fact use Sr and are accurate to a part in $10^{18}$ or so but these are not used as the official time standard. Perhaps in the future they will be.

*****Note that these clocks tick almost $10^{10}$ (ten trillion) times per second. At a stability of $10^{16}$ these clocks can run for over 10 days and not get off by one tick.

Jagerber48
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  • I'm certainly convinced you have understood the context of my question - you have restated it well! Like you say, sailors on the sea did not say "time had gone slower/faster on the high seas"! So why do some say an atomic clock sent around the Earth on a plane has experienced "time dilation", rather than simply "boat rocking"? Indeed, why do some insist that the atomic clock is stable? Yes, you can say it is stable but for gravity and motion, but then it is not stable at all - far from being a physical constant, it fundamentally and in principle continues to be variable. – Steve Feb 18 '18 at 21:38
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    Well the atomic clocks at Boulder/Paris are stable because, they are not experiencing any special or general relativistic effects that change as a function of time, or if they are, those effects shift both clocks equally so for all terrestrial activities we can consider the clocks to be good references. – Jagerber48 Feb 18 '18 at 21:45
  • Regarding the atomic clock going into orbit and experiencing "time dilation". Should we consider that to be "rocking of the boat"? Well in my point 5) I said in some sense we can think of special relativistic effects as just another external mechanism to change the clockspeed RELATIVE to the clock in Boulder. Which is to say, Yes, relativistic effects are just other forms of boat rocking. The important part is that we can predict the effect of these relativistic effects on the clocks time and we see good agreement with our models. – Jagerber48 Feb 18 '18 at 21:46
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    However, as others have said, under relativistic effects ALL physical systems will undergo such "rocking" which manifests itself as clocks running faster or slower relative to a clock in a different reference frame. Given this, it is fine to say that the "rocking of the boat" experienced by an atomic clock on a spaceship is equivalent to time slowing down on the spaceship relative to clock on earth. – Jagerber48 Feb 18 '18 at 21:48
  • Also I just edited the answer to add a section 7) with a little more detail on what I mean by "stable". – Jagerber48 Feb 18 '18 at 21:56
  • As far as I'm concerned we're in total agreement on the points that matter. You've grasped what most others have failed to, and I can tell we understand the physical reality in the same way. My only point is that it is not fine to equate "boat rocking" with "time slowing down", because that leads people to reason wrongly about atomic processes being a special category of physics that are not subject to environmental variation. It is a completely different position to say something is subject to no variation, than to say it is subject to variation along with everything else. – Steve Feb 18 '18 at 22:42
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    As you've stated it in this comment your point is more pedagogical/semantic than anything. You are worried that the language of time slowing down leads to people to believe atomic processes are not subject to environmental perturbation. I see your point but disagree with your conclusion. It is possible to believe that special relativity actually has "time slowing down" but also realize that atoms can be subject to environmental perturbations. – Jagerber48 Feb 18 '18 at 23:07
  • What should perhaps be emphasized (as I have done in my answer) to assuage your concern of misconceptions arising in others is the fact that, in fact, atoms ARE subject environmental perturbations. I think what more likely happens than what you're describing is people learn that atomic clocks keep "perfect time" or atoms are "pristine" oscillators. They then assume that atoms are truly perfect physical systems (this should be a red flag) and extend this concept to special relativity thinking that atomic clocks are perfect measurers of time and thus the atomic clock running slow – Jagerber48 Feb 18 '18 at 23:10
  • means time is running slow. This is where you come in with concerns about what clocks (even atomic clocks) measure. In fact, you are precisely concerned with the argument that "since atomic clocks run slow under special relativity that means time runs slow". In fact the special relativity argument is more direct. It says that because the speed of light is constant in all frames time dilation must occur. It has nothing to do with atomic clocks. The atomic clocks are just experimental corroboration of the theory. In fact, it confirms the theory up to the precision of the clocks, $10^{16}$ – Jagerber48 Feb 18 '18 at 23:13
  • To conclude and get to the point of your comment, all parties should be appeased by stating that A) the laws of special relativity or physics afford no privileged status to atomic systems. All physical systems experience time dilation equally. That is why it is ok to say that time slows down in moving reference frames. And B) Despite possible misconceptions, atomic clocks, just like all clocks, are not perfect and are subject to perturbations which can cause them to run fast or slow. These perturbations can include relativistic effects. – Jagerber48 Feb 18 '18 at 23:15
  • By the way, I'm a bit excited about this topic so I keep typing. Check out this experiment where two atomic clocks were run with one lifted up by 1 meter. They experienced a relative gravitational redshift that caused them to run at different frequencies. That means that for these clocks to agree not only must you keep them at the same temp, magnetic field etc. you must ensure they are also in the same gravitational field, otherwise they will run differently! This shows you how hard it is to make a good clock at the $10^{-18}$ level! – Jagerber48 Feb 18 '18 at 23:17
  • https://www.nist.gov/news-events/news/2010/09/nist-pair-aluminum-atomic-clocks-reveal-einsteins-relativity-personal-scale C.W. Chou, D.B. Hume, T. Rosenband and D.J. Wineland. Optical Clocks and Relativity. Science. Sept. 24, 2010. – Jagerber48 Feb 18 '18 at 23:19
  • Haha. You're certainly on the right track with me - I'm mainly raising these questions because misconceptions about physics were conveyed to me by others! And one only has to review answers here to see that many people do not understand what they're talking about. My more general concern is what I said, that arguing that gravity or motion affects the rate of all processes, is different in meaning from saying atomic processes are constant and affected by nothing and that, in relativity, it is the passage of time that is affected by motion and gravity. (1/2) – Steve Feb 18 '18 at 23:58
  • You don't get the same quality of physical reasoning when people attribute the variable to time itself. For example, they don't say "yes, the rate of an atomic clock is subject to an environmental variable: the passage of time", because conceiving of the "passage of time" as an environmental variable strikes a harsh chord with people's metaphysical understanding of the concept, and you've got to try and conceive how time is "flowing" through all these things, and how motion or gravity affects this flow. (2/2) – Steve Feb 18 '18 at 23:58
  • ...The truth, of course, is that there is no physical flow at all - the entire concept of the passage of time is metaphysical. – Steve Feb 18 '18 at 23:58
3

The parameter time is a concept derived by abstraction from physical observations. These observations show that different physical processes (at a location) exhibit a coherence which also can be repeated. For example, the number of swings of a pendulum or a balance wheel corresponds repeatedly to a good approximation to the emptying of a sand or water clock or to the daily passage of a star due to the rotation of the earth. This coherence is, of course, dependent on the accuracy of used devices or processes but the abstraction works pretty well that there exists a parameter $t$ called time that maintains an enduring and repeated relation between different physical processes. To use the concept of "rate" for a process is only a different way to use the concept of time because rate is just amount of change divided by time. This concept of an existing parameter $t$ governing all physical processes at a location has been extraordinarily successful and has been confirmed in all advances in accuracy of technical implementations to represent this parameter.

In my opinion, there has probably not been a shift in reasoning with respect to the possible influence of various physical conditions and errors on time keeping devices since the 19th century. And the abstract concept of time independent of time keeping devices exists since antiquity. Only the understanding of the used physical processes and the reduction of errors have increased enormously. This includes the discontinuance of the concept of an absolute time and the influence of gravity on it in the special and general theory of relativity.

freecharly
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  • RE "there has probably not been a shift in reasoning with respect to the possible influence of various physical conditions and errors on time keeping devices since the 19th century"; you don't consider the widespread acceptance of the Einstein (/Lorentz) theory of relativity in the 20th C to be such a shift? – The Photon Feb 18 '18 at 17:00
  • @ThePhoton - Of course, it is a shift in the concept of time not being absolute and influenced by a gravitational field, which I mentioned. But this has probably not been a shift in timekeeping devices themselves. – freecharly Feb 18 '18 at 17:11
  • OK, specifically about how we reason about timekeeping devices, I'll point out that the Allan variance, one of the key tools for measuring timekeeping errors, was only conceived in the 2nd half of the 20th C. – The Photon Feb 18 '18 at 17:14
  • Thanks for the answer @Freecharly. I'm not questioning the use of time (I don't see we can do without it!), I'm examining what it actually is - and whether the concepts of time and rate are often being sloppily conflated. If "rate is the amount of change divideed by time", then it is clearly relevant to acknowledge that what is being measured is rate, not time. They are two different things (with one incorporating the other), which ought to be spoken about differently (or at least, they ought to be recognised as different things which only maybe can be conflated in specific contexts). – Steve Feb 18 '18 at 17:25
  • ...When talking about relativistic effects, for example, it is my contention that they cannot be conflated, because motion and gravity are variables in the measurement of rate. Yet, clearly from the comments I've had, people are asserting that atomic processes have a constant rate - they're not acknowledging motion and gravity as variables which affect rate (just as temperature affects a pendulum), but cannot (validly and rigorously) be said to affect time. – Steve Feb 18 '18 at 17:25
  • ...Nor does it help to redefine time as equivalent to rate - because we've already established that they are two different concepts, and physics would still be challenged to explain what "time" is, if not an abstract and potentially metaphysical concept that is postulated to make the theory work. Indeed, it appears simply to be the residual value, whenever a "rate" is divided by a constant! And it works only when the defined constant corresponds to an unchanged physical variable. The constant becomes invalid for deriving "time" from rate, if the physical variable varies. – Steve Feb 18 '18 at 17:25
  • @Steve - The question "what time actually is", is of course, very intriguing. In the end, the concept of "rate" cannot do without time either, the difference is only what "amount of change" means. For determining the rate of a process, you need a reference process. And you can, of course, use a specific reference process and compare it with the investigated one. Then you have a rate defined by change of process 1 divided by change of process 2. You just don't use the word time because you don't abstract the concept from many reference processes including considering errors. – freecharly Feb 18 '18 at 18:11
  • @freecharly, I agree that rate cannot do without time, but it doesn't make it identical to time. I intend to put another question eventually (continuing to break down what I said in my original linked question), exploring that time is not an independent physical dimension (like the 3 spatial dimensions are independent degrees of freedom), but is itself a derived measure of change in the spatial dimensions (i.e. a measurement of pure time is physically meaningless, it is a metaphysical concept and quantity, which is precisely why it can't be measured directly). – Steve Feb 18 '18 at 18:29
  • @Steve. But then space cannot be measured directly either... – Stéphane Rollandin Feb 18 '18 at 19:26
  • @StéphaneRollandin, it depends what you mean. Maybe save it for the next question I ask! – Steve Feb 18 '18 at 20:32
  • @Steve - I think that the essential point about the concept of time is that it is obtained by abstraction from the observation of the coherence of (the rate of) different processes. In this sense, it is not so much different to the concept of length. You can use a yardstick , a thumb, a meter, a foot, a fathom to measure certain distances, and you will always, within errors, have the same ratio between them. Thus the abstract concept of length is formed. – freecharly Feb 21 '18 at 15:21
  • @freecharly, maybe have a look at the last block I wrote in response to Chris on the subject: https://chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/73393/discussion-between-chris-and-steve. I think I've explained myself much more clearly there. – Steve Feb 21 '18 at 15:26
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The main reason for shift in reasoning has been better understanding/formulation of passage of time.

Yes, clocks measure rate of something or other.

The variables you refer to in classical sense, are design specific variable. You can design two pendulums almost identical but having slightly different friction. This is a design issue.

In case of atomic clocks, the design issues do not come into picture, or if they do, they are very different kind of design issues and once calibrated, the variation in these designs is probably nil. In a classical clock (pendulum), two clocks can not only have different friction to begin with, their friction can also vary differently with time. Hence the classical issues are considered true variable because they arise from the design and they can be measured.

Now in case of calibrated atomic clocks, design specific variables are supposed to be eliminated. So, how does the tick rate still varies? The tick rate can vary because of situations that are independent of the design issues. How you can detect this change in tick rate, is a different issue?

For example, you have an atomic clock at a fixed location on earth today and it ticks at one rate. A month later, earth itself moves say closer to couple of neighboring planets because of orbital circumstances. Now the same clock will tick at a different rate, but there is no way that you can detect this change in terms of design changes/corrections. All clocks, classical/atomic/good/bad will undergo that change in tick rate.

That is where relativity comes to help. It talks about frame of reference. Two different frames of reference have different tick rates. So, when earth moved closer to other planets, in effect frame of reference (counting gravity in) has changed and so did the tick rate. To detect this change, you have to measure it against tick rate in another frame of reference.

Two identical atomic clocks, one placed on equator and one on the pole at equal height from see level will tick at different rate. Two identical atomic clocks, placed at different heights from see level on same vertical line, will tick at different rate. These are not design specific differences, these are frame specific differences and while being in same frame of reference, you can not detect these changes, whatever you do.

So comparing with your temperature example, the change in temperature changes the frame of reference. If all processes are perfectly coordinated with temperature, you can not detect these changes as the temperature changes assuming you can not measure temperature itself and deduce that something changed.

The frame of reference defined in relativity, says that everything is perfectly coordinated in that frame - "laws of physics are equally valid in all inertial frames of references".

kpv
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There are many different types of clock that we make, that (relativistic effects aside) can be said to run with more-or-less constant time. A simple pendulum, for instance, has a period of approximately $$ T=2\pi\sqrt{l\over g} $$

A pendulum, of course, is not that great of a clock. As you have said, its "constant" time keeping can be frustrated in a number of ways. Most of these can be compensated for in one way or another, but in the end we don't expect a pendulum to keep perfect time. What we can do is figure out all these sources of error and quantify them- this gives us a statement like "this pendulum keeps time accurate up to one second per year."

Now, relativistic effects aside, atomic clocks are the "gold standard" of constant clocks. The time measured by two atomic clocks in the same reference frame, at the same altitude, is extremely consistent. Now, these clocks are still not perfect- there's slight drift due to experimental error. By the 1990s, however, this was less than a nanosecond per day, as shown by this graph of clock uncertainties, by NIST:

enter image description here

Now, to relativity. Why do we believe in time dilation? How do we know that it's not just atomic clocks changing frequency?

Ultimately, this comes down to the fact that special and general relativity work extremely well. Remember that, at the time relativity was developed, no time dilation effects had been measured, as no clock could measure time accurately enough to detect a deviation from the tiny effect of earth's gravity. Relativity predicted that time would dilate under certain effects, and when our clock technology caught up, we noticed that, indeed, everything that could be considered a clock acted exactly as relativity predicted.

Ultimately, time is a human construct. Let's say you get into a spacecraft traveling a significant fraction of the speed of light (let's say $\gamma=2$) and return to earth. Your atomic clock says you were traveling for 10 years. You've aged 10 years. The experience felt like 10 years. Your watch says the trip took 10 years. Your radioactive clock has gone through 10 years worth of half-lives. In relativity, you would just say the trip took 10 years of proper time. All of these would be reasonable definitions of time, and they all agree with one another.

You can, of course, make a new theory where time is absolute, and whatever NIST-F2 measures is absolute time, and it's just all processes that could be construed as a clock that change rate when you're not in Boulder, Colorado (which is where NIST-F2 is). This has a few problems:

  • It makes it literally impossible to measure "time" anywhere outside of Boulder, Colorado
  • It's extremely geocentric. Which is just kind of dissatisfying from a philosophical standpoint
  • You are abandoning relativity, which means you now have to find different explanations for the many apparently disconnected phenomena that relativity explains. Consider the precession of the orbit of Mercury, for instance.
  • If you can come up with a consistent theory (and note that I'm not asserting you can) that explains everything relativity does, it's certainly going to be more complicated. So what was the point?
Chris
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  • Chris, I appreciate this answer, but the fact that relativity works is immaterial - nobody ever said it didn't, or that it was wrong, so I don't see why you need to rehearse that point at so much length. My main challenge is in how it's effects are being described, and misleading statements about the constancy of the rate of atomic processes. Also, you undercut yourself, since if "time is a human construct", how can it be said to be vary owing to the physical environment? Surely it is the measurable things which are not constructs (like "clock rate") which would be held to vary? – Steve Feb 18 '18 at 22:56
  • @Steve In relativity, the rate of these processes is constant- it's time itself that changes. "What time is" is a human construct, but the definition of time as used in relativity is a specific physical thing that varies. You can rename time as "inverse clock rate" if you like, and insist that "time" is "inverse clock rate as measured in Colorado" if you like, but it's hard to see what you've accomplished except make your theory more geocentric. – Chris Feb 18 '18 at 23:14
  • @Steve Basically, under any reasonable definition of "time," "inverse clock rate" is the closest thing to "time" that is locally measurable. If relativity of time bothers you, you can say one person's ICR is correct, and call that "time," or say that "time" is something magical and unmeasurable. But relativity of time doesn't bother physicists, so we just call it time. – Chris Feb 19 '18 at 00:16
  • I'm not particularly bothered about the relativity of time - any more so than I'm bothered about the relativity of the rates of physical processes! You seem to be interpreting everything I say as a grudge against relativity - it's not, it's a grudge against illogicality. My original question was simple: what justifies us talking about "time being slowed" instead of talking about "rates of processes being slowed", and the answer I've got is nothing at all. They are equivalent statements in relativity, and more broadly, the latter conveys the appropriate meaning about the physical reality. – Steve Feb 19 '18 at 00:55
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    All it comes down to is if time is not relative, then time is not measurable either. Positing that time is not relative also creates a preferred reference frame, which is a useless addition to the theory. Clocks measure (proper) time by definition, and we define it this way because any absolute definition makes time unmeasurable (and so kind of useless) – Chris Feb 19 '18 at 04:01
  • There is no modification required to the theory to acknowledge it is rates that are relative. It is rates that the clock is measuring. Time is unmeasurable - it's derivable numerically only by measuring a rate and then asserting a constant. The way you have it, the absolutism of time has simply been replaced with the absolutism (the constancy) of the rates of atomic processes - so you haven't purged the assertion of absolutes from the theory, you've simply moved them around (i.e. you've replaced the assertion of absolute time, with the assertion of absolute atomic rates). (1/4) – Steve Feb 19 '18 at 15:45
  • The reason I prefer time to be the absolute, is because it is not directly measurable. Atomic rates can be measured to be variable. It may as well be the unmeasurable quantity that takes the strain of being the absolute. I understand now why time is being used as the variable, because the "time" parameter in the formalism is being overloaded with meaning, and used as a universal rate-correction factor in the formalism - which makes the physics formalism a great deal simpler than introducing extra terms (Which all assume the same value) into every rate. (2/4) – Steve Feb 19 '18 at 15:45
  • Moreover, more than one physical phenomenon requires a rate-correction factor, and again because it simplified and rolled-up into a time correction, it is never clear whether the physical phenomenon is an "apparent" one (like Doppler or length contraction), or a "real" one (like motion-induced time dilation - which I really ought to call "rate dilation"). It's convenient that the formalism can cope with all these effects in such a simple way, by adjusting the "time" parameter in all cases, but that time parameter is concealing a multitude of different underlying physical phenonmena. (3/4) – Steve Feb 19 '18 at 15:45
  • Finally, by returning to "absolute time" (but not absolute rates), we are closer to analysing what time actually is and what role it plays in the theory. I'm of the view that it is an abstract quantity derived from "spatial dynamics" - that is, it is not an independent physical dimension. There is no physical flow of time. It's an abstract hypothesis to reason about different past and future spatial states - and make "change" amenable to quantitative geometry. Being abstract and unphysical, and being axiomatic, there is no good reason why time ought not to be an "absolute". (4/4) – Steve Feb 19 '18 at 15:46
  • ...And again, what this approach flushes out, is that when nothing moves in space, nothing moves in time. Time does not pass without a change in the spatial configuration of the system - precisely because of it's "spatial dynamics" role. And time repeats if the entire spatial configuration repeats. That is, two identical spatial states of a system, are undifferentiable in time. In practice of course, the entire universe does not repeat itself (or not frequently anyway), nor does it become static, which is why humans are convinced time is always flowing, but that's another story. – Steve Feb 19 '18 at 15:59
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To answer your main two questions:

What do clocks measure?

Clocks count the number of times the same continuous sequence of events occur.

Since the rate is held to be constant, then if the clock reading varies, it is then attributable to a change in "the passage of time itself", rather than a mere change in the rate of the process being measured.

We shouldn't assume this. The continuous sequence of events a clock is counting may indeed change, making the clock inaccurate. So to account for this, physicists create a number of clocks using a different sequence of events, and then compare their readings. If the majority show the same reading within a certain error, then physicists can be increasingly confident that the sequence of events each clock is counting doesn't change either, making the clocks accurate.

ACuriousMind
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Larry Harson
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