Consider the hypothetical situation of two electrons orbiting each other with a certain radius between them, going at extremely high speeds. Would this create gravitational waves strong enough to be detected? If not, would there be another method in doing so? Also consider that we are in classical physics; no weird quantum stuff.

- 201,751
-
Related post by OP: https://physics.stackexchange.com/q/522611/2451 – Qmechanic Jan 02 '20 at 10:48
-
3We can barely detect gravitational waves from two black holes of dozens of solar masses, so it is unreasonable to think we could detect them from two elementary particles. – G. Smith Jan 02 '20 at 10:52
-
But the only reason we can't is because they are very far away. If we were close, the measurement would be huge. – Jan 02 '20 at 11:11
-
1If we could make a tabletop gravitational wave emitter using elementary particles, and a detector, we would not have built LIGO to detect waves from black holes and neutron stars. Physicists do not intentionally waste billions of dollars of taxpayers’ money. – G. Smith Jan 02 '20 at 11:18
-
If you want to do the math, read about the quadrupole formula for gravitational radiation. – G. Smith Jan 02 '20 at 11:19
-
1I completely understand, I was just wondering whether they could be detected. That's all. It's good to finally know that the indetectablility of gravitational waves at a small scale can be expressed via the quadrupole equation. I figured I'd just ask the question rather than doing the maths myself :) – Jan 02 '20 at 11:35
-
4Two electrons can't orbit each other, so the question doesn't make sense. – Jan 02 '20 at 15:05
-
FWIW, the gravitational energy emitted by the Earth orbiting the Sun is around 196 watts, see https://physics.stackexchange.com/a/412990/123208 Good luck trying to detect such waves from systems with smaller quadrupole moments. ;) – PM 2Ring Jan 02 '20 at 18:56
-
@pm2ring what has the power emitted by a system got to do with the detectability of GWs? It is the strain amplitude that is detected, and whilst there is a relationship between strain and power, it is not as trivially obvious as your comment implies. A quantitative response is of course possible. – ProfRob Jan 02 '20 at 19:34
-
@BenCrowell They can't orbit gravitationally, but you can force them to "orbit" in a magnetic field. – ProfRob Jan 02 '20 at 19:41
-
@RobJeffries Ok. I was just trying to give a sense of how small the power of gravitational waves is, even for something with the mass & orbital speed of the Earth. – PM 2Ring Jan 02 '20 at 19:49
-
Wouldn't the electromagnetic interaction be orders of magnitude larger than the gravitational one up to the planck scale? – twisted manifold Jan 02 '20 at 19:52
-
@G.Smith We would have made a tabletop detector and aLIGO. The purpose of aLIGO is to do astrophysics on black holes and neutron stars, not merely to detect GWs. It is unlikely that aLIGO would have been built if there were serious doubts that GWs with the predicted amplitude existed. – ProfRob Jan 02 '20 at 20:42
-
1@RobJeffries Agreed. I shouldn’t have said that we would not have built LIGO if we could have done a tabletop experiment. I should have said that if a tabletop experiment were possible, we would have done it or be working on it. – G. Smith Jan 03 '20 at 01:28
1 Answers
The dimensionless amplitude of a gravitational wave (known as "the strain") is given approximately by $$ h \sim \frac{2G}{rc^4}\ddot{Q}, $$ where $\ddot{Q}$ is the second derivative of the mass quadrupole moment and $r$ is the distance to the potential source of gravitational waves. It is this strain amplitude that is detected by a gravitational wave detector.
Leaving aside that two electrons wouldn't "orbit each other" gravitationally (however, they could be forced to circle a common centre of mass by applying an appropriate magnetic field), a pair of masses in orbit have a mass quadrupole moment of (just considering one of the possible two polarisations) $$ Q = \mu a^2 (\cos^2 \omega t - 1/3),$$ where $a$ is the separation of the masses and $\mu$ is the "reduced mass" $m_1 m_2/(m_1 + m_2)$, which for equal masses $m_e$, we have $\mu = m_e/2$. The angular frequency $\omega$ is equal to $2\pi$ divided by the orbital period.
Differentiating this twice we get $$ \ddot{Q} = \omega^2 m_e a^2 \cos (2\omega t),$$ and an amplitude of $$ h \sim \frac{2G}{rc^4} \omega^2 m_e a^2.$$
A more useable expression comes from noting that $\omega a/2$ would be the speed of the orbit, leaving $$ h \sim 10^{-57} \left(\frac{r}{1\ {\rm m}}\right)^{-1} \left(\frac{v}{c}\right)^2$$
The best gravitational wave detectors in the world are capable of detecting strains of about $10^{-23}$ at frequencies of $\omega \sim 1000$ rad/s. To get close to $v \sim c$ at this frequency, the electrons would need to circle their centre of mass at a separation of $600$ km (hard to see how you would arrange that) and in order to see them as some coherent source you would need to observe them from considerably more distance than that, i.e. at $r > 10^{6}$ m. The strain produced would then be $\sim 40$ orders of magnitude smaller than could be detected.
You could of course get closer to a smaller source, but to keep the orbital frequency in the detectable band of instruments like LIGO, you would have to reduce the speed to well below that of light.

- 130,455
-
Moreover, we have every reason to believe that quantum mechanics ensures that there is no radiation at all - electromagnetic or gravitational - from a two-particle system in its lowest energy quantum state. If there could be such radiation, nothing would be stable and we should be able to see resulting differences in the spectra of sources at cosmological distances. – S. McGrew Jan 02 '20 at 14:47
-
@S.McGrew The OP requests that quantum effects are ignored. Besides, the setup above is not the lowest energy quantum state. – ProfRob Jan 02 '20 at 14:53
-
"the electrons would need to circle each other" the electrons cannot be circling each other, as same charge repulses , period. The electromanetic interaction would make them fly-away/ scatter off each other classically., it is many orders of magnitude larger than the gravitational,. – anna v Jan 02 '20 at 17:52
-
1@annav maybe that's why I said "Leaving aside that two electrons wouldn't 'orbit each other', ". But you are wrong in any case that it cannot happen, since (in principle) this is what happens in a synchrotron accelerator. – ProfRob Jan 02 '20 at 18:20
-
However, "circle each other" is a bit loose and I mean, circle their centre of mass. – ProfRob Jan 02 '20 at 18:35
-
"since (in principle) this is what happens in a synchrotron accelerar" can you give me a link for this statement? AFAIK in accelerators the particles go around in closed circles, in a synchrotron synchronized with an increase in energy, but in principle they are going around a point common to all, not around each other in pairs. – anna v Jan 02 '20 at 19:06
-
@annav here is a synchrotron that separates particles that go round in two bunches with a phase difference https://www.isis.stfc.ac.uk/Pages/How-ISIS-works.aspx A pair is two bunches of one. As to your second point, I had already made an edit to correct my loose phraseology. – ProfRob Jan 02 '20 at 19:26