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We've a body that's oscillating in a fixed plane such that the torque on it is

$$\Gamma=-k \theta.$$

I went on an computed its energy ( kinetic + potential) and it was constant.

Why was it constant? It could only be constant if the force producing the torque was conservative but how can I see from the equation above that the force is conservative?

SuperCiocia
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Kashmiri
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3 Answers3

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There are a few conceptual issues in your question.

I went on an computed its energy ( kinetic + potential) and it was constant. Why was it constant?

This way of putting it creates or betrays some conceptual confusion. The ability to compute the potential energy already presupposes knowledge that potential energy is well-defined for this situation. But knowing that the force admits a well defined notion of potential energy is identical to knowing that kinetic plus potential energy is constant. That's basically just the definition of potential energy, it's whatever function of position makes the total energy constant.

In other words, to put it briefly, having a formula for the potential energy presupposes that the total energy is constant.

It could only be constant if the force producing the torque was conservative

Not necessarily. It's theoretically possible that the force is really weird, for example depending not just on the position but also on time, but it sort of "conspires" to produce a nice torque.

but how can I see from the equation above that the force is conservative?

Because of the above, a more correct way of putting this question would be: how can I see that for this situation we can define a notion of potential energy such that the total energy is conserved? Which is equivalent to asking: how can I see that in this situation the kinetic energy only depends on the position (angle)?

The simplest way to see this I think is from the fact that the situation is mathematically analogous to the spring. Mathematically the situation looks identical to that of the spring if we replace the angular quantities (angle, torque, angular acceleration, moment of inertia) with the corresponding linear quantities (position, force, acceleration, mass). And we know that we can easily define a notion of potential energy for the spring, such that the total energy is constant, so we do exactly the same thing with the mathematically identical current situation.

ReasonMeThis
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  • So basically, energy conserved doesn't imply conservative force? – Kashmiri Dec 26 '20 at 12:56
  • Having $U$ defined implies that $E$ is constant ,how is this a misunderstanding? – Kashmiri Dec 26 '20 at 13:11
  • More specifically, a conservative torque doesn't necessarily imply a conservative force. – ReasonMeThis Dec 26 '20 at 18:29
  • I'm not sure if this was a misunderstanding on your part or not. But the confusing part is this: you said you calculated the potential energy and then asked why the total energy was constant. But the energy being constant is just part of the definition of what it means to be potential energy. – ReasonMeThis Dec 26 '20 at 18:33
  • In an underdamped oscillator we define potential energy even though the energy isn't constant. As is done here http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/teaching/315/Waves/node10.html#e3.2 – Kashmiri Dec 27 '20 at 04:11
  • @YasirSadiq Of course if you have not one but 2+ different forces one of them could have a potential energy defined for it (and automatically be conservative) and the other could be something like a friction force. Then yes, of course the energy wouldn't be conserved, due to whichever force didn't have an associated potential energy – ReasonMeThis Dec 27 '20 at 04:50
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This is Hooke’s law for a torsion spring, or the angular equivalent of Hooke’s law,

$$\tau = -k \theta$$

so it really makes more sense talking about the torque and not a linear force.

Upon inspection you can note that torque is directly proportional to the angular displacement and the potential energy stored in the spring is given by

$$U = - \frac{1}{2} k \theta^2$$

Since the original equation can be described as the derivative of the potential energy, you have by definition a conservative torque.

joseph h
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  • Thank you, Imho a Force is conservative is it's derivable from a potential, is it true for the forces which produce torques as well.? – Kashmiri Dec 26 '20 at 13:22
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Is the force conservative which produced the torque?

Let's reason back the nature of force from energy rather than reason from forces to energy. We can write total energy in angular coordinate as:

$$ E = \frac{1}{2}I \dot{\theta}^2 + U(\theta) \tag{0}$$

Now in a hypothetical periodic motion where the oscillations don't die off in amplitude, this suggests that:

$$ \frac{dE}{dt} = 0 \tag{1}$$

Or,

$$ I \alpha \dot{\theta} + \frac{dU}{d \theta} \dot{\theta} = 0$$

Or,

$$ I \alpha + \frac{dU}{d \theta} = 0$$

Which is the conservative force equation.


Argument for (1) : Conservation of energy for an isolated system; if we had conservative forces at play $ \frac{dE}{dt}<0$

Remark on (0) : I assumed a potential purely dependent on $ \theta$ , you could do a potential which depends on both $r, \theta $ but that'd require the multi-variable chain rule.

Note:

A time dependent force implys no energy conservation. see here

  • Thank you but as said by @reasonmethis "It's theoretically possible that the force is really weird, for example depending not just on the position but also on time, but it sort of "conspires" to produce a nice torque" then it isn't necessary that the force is conservative but your analysis says so. – Kashmiri Dec 26 '20 at 13:20
  • A time independent force implys no energy conservation , see the linked answer @YasirSadiq – tryst with freedom Dec 26 '20 at 14:42