-1

I was wondering, what would be the value of Vacuum Permettivity in the case 1 meter (I will call this 1m") would be defined as the distance we nowadays see as 1,10 meters.

At first this looks easy:

$E_0 = 8.8541878128 \times 10^{-12}$ F / m with normal meters

$E_0" = E_0 \times 1,1$

$E_0" = 9.739660659408 \times 10^{-12}$ F / m" with converted meters.

However, when I look at Farads, this is defined as $$1F = \frac{s{^4} \times A{^2}}{1m{^2} \times kg}$$ so Farads should be converted too.

And Amperes are defined as:

"The ampere is that constant current which, if maintained in two straight parallel conductors of infinite length, of negligible circular cross-section, and placed one metre apart in vacuum, would produce between these conductors a force equal to $2 \times 10{^{-7}}$ newtons per metre of length."

which also involves meters, and Newtons, which are defined as $$1N = \frac{kg \times 1m}{s{^2}}$$

this all makes it too tough for me.

So, in short, my question is: is the calculated version of E0" correct?

Bill N
  • 15,410
  • 3
  • 38
  • 60
12know
  • 11
  • Look at my edit and try to make it work. It's hard to follow your argument otherwise. – nasu Jan 18 '21 at 13:31
  • Thanks, This looks a lot better. – 12know Jan 18 '21 at 13:43
  • This question is unanswerable unless you specify what units are fixed as constants when you do the change; the answer will be different depending on what you choose to keep constant. Note also that the definition of the ampere changed in 2019 (see here or here) and the version you've quoted is now obsolete. – Emilio Pisanty Jan 18 '21 at 14:47
  • @EmilioPisanty all other units stay unchanged. only a meter is longer. I'm looking for the value in that hypothetical situation. That's it. BTW I know definitions have changed, but for the sake of understability I took the old one. If the new definition makes it more comprehensible I'm interrested in that value too, but me myself am more familiar with the old one. – 12know Jan 18 '21 at 14:50
  • @12know You can't have "all" other units stay unchanged. E.g. you cannot have the ampere and the volt both stay constant. If you mean that all the other base SI units stay constant, then you need to say so explicitly. Moreover, if you are taking a definition of the ampere that depends on the meter, then you need to explicitly say whether the value should be updated to use the changed value of the meter. – Emilio Pisanty Jan 18 '21 at 14:58
  • @EmilioPisanty Okay, I don't see the Volt in the definition but okay, like my post suggested the ampere would have to change since this is the one depending on the meter (or not, see below). You're second statement: yes, this should be updated(if necessary, but, as you can see below, I guess the two would cancel each other out). – 12know Jan 18 '21 at 15:02

1 Answers1

1

The simplest way to approach this is via the relationship $$ c^2 = \frac{1}{\epsilon_0\mu_0} \tag{$*$} $$ between the vacuum permittivity and permeability and the speed of light.

  • If the value of the meter increases by 10% (i.e. multiplied by $r=1.1$), then the value of $c$ must decrease by 10% (since there are now fewer (new) meters in the distance covered by light in one second).

  • In the pre-2019 SI, the definition of the ampere effectively means that $\mu_0$ has a fixed value of $$\mu_0=4\pi\times 10^{-7} \:\rm H/m=4\pi\times 10^{-7} \:\rm kg \: m \: s^{−2} \: A^{−2}.$$ If you retain the text of the old definition but now use the updated meter, then you're fixing the numerical value of $\mu_0$, i.e., the ampere must increase by $\sqrt{r}$ (roughly, increase by 4.88%$\approx$5%), but $\mu_0$ stays constant. This implies that $\epsilon_0$ goes up by $r^2$.

  • On the other hand if the ampere stays fixed (i.e. the actual current) then $\mu_0$ must go up with $r$. In this case, $\epsilon_0$ goes up as $r$.

  • The 2019 redefinition of the SI units changes the ampere so that it is metrologically independent from the meter (since it now depends only on the second and the elementary charge $e$). Within this setting, it pays to use a modified version of $(*)$, derived from the definition of the fine-structure constant, $$\alpha = \frac{1}{4\pi\epsilon_0}\frac{e^2}{\hbar c},$$ rearranged into the form $$\epsilon_0 = \frac{e^2}{2\alpha h c}.\tag{$**$}$$ Here $e$, $h$ and $c$ all have explicit values fixed in the new SI, and $\alpha$ has an experimentally-fixed dimensionless value.

    • As we saw above, you probably want to change $c$, decreasing by $r$, for consistency.
    • If you want to be consistent, then you probably also want to change the numerical value of $h=6.62607015×10^{−34}\:\rm kg\:m^2\:s^{-1}$, which should decrease by $r^2$, if you want to keep the value (not the definition) of the kilogram unchanged.
    • The value of $e^2$ should probably stay untouched, which means the ampere does not change (as opposed to the pre-2019 ampere).

    In these conditions, $\epsilon_0$ should increase by $r^3$.

This is just to emphasize a point I made on an earlier thread: you cannot, cannot, change one part of a measurement system without being absolutely clear about which other parts you're keeping constant, because the impacts will depend on multiple key choices you need to make when you're making that specification.

Emilio Pisanty
  • 132,859
  • 33
  • 351
  • 666
  • At first thanks for your clearifying answer, I don't understand it totally, but I can follow the way to deal with this now. Very nice. At second: I Assume (*) is still valid in the new system? So if E0 increases by r^3, this means MU0 decreases by r? At third, what would be the right way to go if, in the new system, i want to keep the value of MU0 unchanged, but still change the distance of 1 meter? Or isn't this possible? – 12know Jan 18 '21 at 16:31
  • And another thing, just trying to learn how to deal with this kind of problems: assume my calculated answer was correct, this means the kilogram would be decreased by r^2 if h is unchanged? And also MU0 would be increased by r, right? And another question: is it allowed, for in my last question about keeping mu0 unchanged, to just say "E0 increases by r^2" instead of "E0 increases by r^3 and MU0 decreases by r". With consequense the kilogram decreases with just r, keeping h the same value? If Im right with this I'm so happy, really learned something today then :-) – 12know Jan 18 '21 at 17:03
  • @12know Comment threads are not the place for protracted back-and-forth; take them to chat (once you've gotten some experience with the site). I don't currently have the time for this volume of follow-up or to chase endless variations. – Emilio Pisanty Jan 18 '21 at 17:24
  • I understand. Correct or not-correct would be enough for me, but okay. Thanks for your time, was very helpfull. – 12know Jan 18 '21 at 18:05