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In this popular answer, I invoked Newton's Law of Cooling/Heating:

$$\dot{q}=hA\Delta T\tag{1}$$ $$\dot{q}=\frac{\mathrm{d} Q}{\mathrm{d}t}\tag{2}$$ $$\dot{q}=\frac{\delta Q}{\mathrm{d}t}\tag{3}$$ $$\mathrm{d}U=\delta Q-p\mathrm{d}V\tag{4}$$ $$\dot{q}=-mc_p\frac{\mathrm{d}T}{\mathrm{d}t}\tag{5}$$ $$\delta Q= mc_p\mathrm{d} T\tag{6}$$ $$-mc_p\frac{\mathrm{d}T}{\mathrm{d}t}=hA\Delta T\tag{7}$$

$(1)$ leads to $(2)$, $(5)$ and $(7)$ which usually is an ODE with analytical solution.

At some point member '@EricDuminil' weighed in, in the comments, claiming I needed to use $(3)$ because of $(4)$ (First Law of Thermodynamics, no less!) Eric has since scrubbed his comments but did suggest an edit according to $(3)$, which I accepted.

My question is, was Eric right or is this $\delta Q$ lark just pedantry, at least in this specific context?


Edit: Following several useful answers, I've reverted back to $(3)$ in my own text.

Urb
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Gert
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    @Jonas We're not talking about partial derivatives ($\partial$) but about inexact differentials ($\delta$). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inexact_differential – Gert Feb 13 '21 at 17:35
  • In (4) there is no time, because time is an extraneous parameter (non-thermodynamical), so $\delta Q (p, T, t)$ is the same as $ dQ (t)$. – DanielC Feb 13 '21 at 17:46
  • Possible duplicates: https://physics.stackexchange.com/q/65724/2451 , https://physics.stackexchange.com/q/36150/2451 and links therein. – Qmechanic Feb 13 '21 at 20:06
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    As far as I'm concerned (for whatever that's worth), the use of $\delta Q$ notation is a lark in all cases; its introduction has done nothing but confuse endless numbers of students over the ages. It should have been sufficient to say that Q and W are both functions of path, while the thermodynamic functions such as U are equilibrium physical properties of the material (i.e., functions of state). – Chet Miller Feb 13 '21 at 20:50
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    @ChetMiller It should have been sufficient to say that Q and W are both functions of path, To be fair, that's what Eric wrote but then insisted I use the $\delta Q$ notation. – Gert Feb 13 '21 at 20:53
  • @Qmechanic, this question only superficially looks like a duplicate. The question you are referring to was asking for the meaning of a related formula without clear ideas about it. The present question is more appropriately asking what is the correct way of writing a derivative. The two questions, although related are different and should have different answers. – GiorgioP-DoomsdayClockIsAt-90 Feb 13 '21 at 21:32
  • Hello again. Thank you very much for digging deeper, and asking this interesting question. FWIW, I didn't use the first law as a reason to write $\delta Q$, and I'm pretty sure I didn't mention (4). I wrote a longer explanation of my reasoning, even though JMurray's answer is excellent. AFAICT, in this specific case, it's okay to write either $\frac{dQ}{dt}$ or $\frac{\delta Q}{dt}$, so I was wrong to insist you change it to $\delta Q$. Sorry about that. Finally, I think it's also wrong to say that $\delta Q$ is plain wrong, as in Giorgio's answer. – Eric Duminil Feb 13 '21 at 22:56
  • I guess I was triggered by many horrible questions, comments and answers on PhysicsSE, in which heat, temperature and internal energy are used interchangeably. And when I look for Wikipedia articles in order to explain the difference, I find that they are plagued by the same problem. https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/305378/kinetic-energy-heat-and-temperature is closed as opinion-based, https://physics.stackexchange.com/a/39569/148854 is written by a 100k user, duplicate link for "temperature vs heat" starts with "heat energy of an object is the SUM of all the kinetic energies"... – Eric Duminil Feb 13 '21 at 23:27
  • @EricDuminil For $(4)$ you used $\mathrm{d}U=\delta Q+\delta W$, the First Law. – Gert Feb 13 '21 at 23:37
  • @Gert: Ah yes. Not as an argument why $\delta Q$ should be used, but possibly as an expression you might already have seen, written with $\delta$ instead of $d$. – Eric Duminil Feb 13 '21 at 23:45

4 Answers4

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I suppose what you consider pedantry is ultimately a matter of personal opinion. I would guess that I tend towards the more pedantic end of PhysSE users, so I'll give my point of view.

To me, the notation $\mathrm dQ$ means "the differential of some function $Q$"; that is, there exists some function $Q$, and $\mathrm dQ$ is a tiny change in its value. When we write the first law as $$dU = \delta Q - \delta W\qquad (\star)$$ we change the notation because $Q$ and $W$ are not functions. If they were, it would imply that it makes sense to talk about the heat or work present in a system, which it of course does not. Instead, $(\star)$ reads

An infinitesimal change in the internal energy function during some process is equal the heat added to the system during the process minus the work done by the system during the process.

$\delta Q$ is not to be interpreted as "the $\delta$ of some function $Q$"; rather, $\delta Q$ is a primitive symbol in its own right which denotes an infinitesimal bit of heat added to the system.

Now with that being said, one could define a function $q(t)$ which gives e.g. the total heat added to the system since time $t=0$. $\mathrm dq = \dot q \mathrm dt$ is perfectly well-defined in this case. Furthermore, when the process in question is "the system is supplied with heat over a time interval $\mathrm dt$," we have that $\delta Q = \dot q \mathrm dt$.

Though it is tempting to write $\delta Q/dt = \dot q$ and then say "ah, well then $Q=q$, let's just use the same symbol for both" or some such thing, I would regard that as an abuse of notation. Leaving it as $\delta Q = \dot q \mathrm dt$ makes it (more) clear that the tiny bit of heat added to the system ($\delta Q$) is given by the differential of your "cumulative heat function" $q$.


Stepping down off of my soapbox, I would express things as follows. If $q(t)$ is the total heat added to the system by time $t$, then $\dot q(t)$ is the rate at which heat is being added at time $t$. Assuming that the system has temperature $T(t)$ and its surroundings have temperature $T_0$ (assumed constant for simplicity), we would have

$$\dot q(t) = P_{in}(t)-hA\big(T(t) - T_0\big)$$

where $P_{in}(t)$ is the power being added at time $t$ (in your linked answer, from the microwave). By definition of the specific heat capacity, the addition of some heat $\delta Q$ causes a corresponding increase in temperature given by

$$\delta Q = mc \mathrm dT$$

Since $\delta Q = \dot q\mathrm dt$, we obtain

$$mcT'(t) = \dot q = P_{in} - hA(T-T_0)$$

which is the ODE to which you refer.

J. Murray
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  • Actually, using the notation $\delta Q$ one should write $\dot q = \frac{{\mathrm d}\delta Q}{{\mathrm d}t}$. – GiorgioP-DoomsdayClockIsAt-90 Feb 13 '21 at 18:21
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    @GiorgioP I disagree. $\delta Q$ is not a function of time - it's just the symbol for the tiny bit of heat being added during whatever process is under consideration. When that process is "the system is being heated for time $\mathrm dt$", then $\delta Q = \dot q \mathrm dt$. – J. Murray Feb 13 '21 at 18:26
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    @GiorgioP Having read your answer, I regard the symbols $\delta Q$ and $\delta W$ as meaning the same thing as your symbols $q$ and $w$ from your last line. – J. Murray Feb 13 '21 at 18:30
  • If you keep adding a varying small amount of heat it is a function of time by definition. See my answer for details. Notice that also Kondepudi&Prigogine in their textbook of thermodynamics have a similar approach. – GiorgioP-DoomsdayClockIsAt-90 Feb 13 '21 at 18:33
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    I added my last comment before reading your reply. I think that we agree beyond notational differences. – GiorgioP-DoomsdayClockIsAt-90 Feb 13 '21 at 18:36
  • I was the original commenter. Your answer is excellent. It's clear and correct, and basically what I wanted to express but didn't manage to. Thanks! – Eric Duminil Feb 13 '21 at 23:02
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    @EricDuminil Thank you for your kind words :) – J. Murray Feb 13 '21 at 23:28
  • Just to be sure I understood your soapbox speech correctly: in this specific case, it's okay to use either $\frac{\delta Q}{dt}$ or $\frac{dq}{dt}$, but $Q$ and $q$ are distinct mathematical objects, and cannot be used interchangeably in general? And to avoid confusion, one can simply write $\dot{q}$? – Eric Duminil Feb 14 '21 at 13:30
  • @EricDuminil That question illustrates my (possibly pedantic) point - $Q$ is not a thing in its own right. $\delta Q$ is a primitive symbol - not the $\delta$ of some $Q$. If you go back through my answer and replace $\delta Q$ with another symbol (say, $\Xi$, if you like exotic Greek letters), you'll find that your question vanishes because it's predicated on the (possibly unconscious) idea that it makes sense to write the $Q$ without the $\delta$. – J. Murray Feb 15 '21 at 02:00
  • @J.Murray: I didn't understand your last comment, so I might not have understood your answer after all. Are you saying that $Q$ should never be written? I agree it's not a state function, so it's not an intrinsic property of any object. Still, it can be clearly defined for a process, can't it? How would you write the first law without infinitesimal, then? – Eric Duminil Feb 15 '21 at 16:16
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Relationships (3) and (4) are true in general since heat and work depend on the path and are therefore treated using inexact differentials. But in this case for heat you know the path by relationship (1), so you can treat the heat as an exact differential as in relationship (2).

John Darby
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The suggestion of using $(3)$ is not pedantry, but it is plainly wrong. And my statement remains true whatever is the status of work and heat, whether exact differentials or not.

The reason is the following. Whatever is the attitude about the expression of the first principle, the differentials appearing there correspond to a linear approximation of the variation of the corresponding function as a function of state variables. This is a different functional dependence as the time dependence. More explicitly, while we cannot write in general. $$ {\mathrm d} U = {\mathrm d} Q +{\mathrm d} W, $$ we can write $$ \frac{{\mathrm d} U}{{\mathrm d} t} = \frac{{\mathrm d} Q}{{\mathrm d} t} + \frac{{\mathrm d} W}{{\mathrm d} t}. $$ In the first case, a state variable dependence is implied. In the second, it is just required the time dependence of quantities like $Q(t)$ and $W(t)$ which may or may not be exact differentials as a function of the state variables. Said in another way, it is impossible to speak meaningfully about differences of heat or work in general. Still, it is always possible to take differences of time-varying functions between two different times.

Notice that all I wrote above cannot be considered a matter of opinion, but it is sound math. The only side of this problem that could be considered opinion is the way of writing equation $(3)$. I add that, following people who knew quite well thermodynamics, like Max Planck, I prefer to write the first principle as $$ {\mathrm d} U = q + w $$ eliminating the need to introduce an ill-defined entity like inexact differentials and make it easier to understand time variations.

  • Thanks for your answer. Couldn't we avoid $\delta Q$ by writing $\frac{\mathrm{d}Q}{\mathrm{d}t}\mathrm{d}t$? I mean, here $Q(t)$ is well-defined. And what do your $q$ and $w$ stand for? – Gert Feb 13 '21 at 19:00
  • @Gert, that is a possibility and it is the way Kondepudi&Prigogine interpret what they write as ${\mathrm d} Q$. $q$ and $w$ in the final part of my answer stand for the quantities you indicate as $\delta Q$ and $-pdV$. – GiorgioP-DoomsdayClockIsAt-90 Feb 13 '21 at 20:30
  • OK, thank you, Giorgio. – Gert Feb 13 '21 at 20:36
  • I agree that insisting on writing $\frac{\delta Q}{dt}$ in this specific case is wrong, but I don't think that writing $\frac{\delta Q}{dt}$ is wrong in itself. – Eric Duminil Feb 13 '21 at 23:07
  • @EricDuminil, I said it is wrong on the basis of the existing use of the notation. Do you have examples of that notation in the scientific literature? If you are introducing a new notation, that is perfectly possible but you should state clearly that it is a new proposal and I would comment that it would be quite a misleading notation. – GiorgioP-DoomsdayClockIsAt-90 Feb 14 '21 at 07:57
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I'm the original commenter.

Process function vs state function.

My argument is simply that heat is a process function, and not a state function.

A system does not have heat. It does not make sense to talk about variation of heat for a system, so it's for example forbidden to write $\Delta Q$, which would mean $Q_2 - Q_1$. Sadly, this notation is used many times over the Internet.

What is defined, though, is: "At the end of a process, how much energy has been transferred from one body to another, due to temperature difference?" This is heat, and it's simply written $Q$.

Exact differential vs inexact differential

Writing $dQ$ would basically mean "a very small $\Delta Q$". But $\Delta Q$ isn't defined, so another notation needs to be used. That's why $\delta Q$, an inexact differential can be used instead of $dQ$, which would be an exact differential.

From "Fundamentals of Engineering Thermodynamics":

heat is not a property

Note that exact differentials are mathematically well-defined, and come with a number of nice properties, which heat or work do not have.

For example, integrating a state function $U$ over a cycle, $$\oint \mathrm{d} U = 0 \, ,$$ while for a path function $Q$ $$\oint \delta Q \neq 0 \, .$$

If $Q$ and $W$ were state functions, engines would be useless : they would absorb no heat and do no work at all, since $Q$ and $W$ would be reset at each cycle.

$\delta Q$ is basically a "tread lightly" sign, indicating that not every operation is allowed or even defined. It's not a differential, it is just a "small bit of heat transferred to the system".

Your question

As mentioned in J.Murray's excellent answer, it is possible to define a new $q$ function for your specific case, and say that $\delta Q = \dot q \mathrm dt$. It's also mentioned in the "Fundamentals of Engineering Thermodynamics":

rate of heat transfer

As far as I can tell, it's never wrong to write $\delta Q$, but it can be wrong to write $dQ$ (e.g. in $dU = dQ + dW$) so I find it easier to stick to $\delta Q$.

In your specific case, $\dot{Q}$ might be the easiest way to avoid confusion.

Eric Duminil
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  • A system does not have heat. It does not make sense to talk about variation of heat for a system, so it's for example forbidden to write $ΔQ$, which would mean $Q_2−Q_1$ I'll probably go to my grave not understanding what that means. The kettle I use for my tea contains heat energy. Then I add heat energy to bring the water to the boil. I've added $\Delta Q=Q_2-Q_1$ heat energy to the water. Simples, Aleksei! – Gert Feb 13 '21 at 23:55
  • @Gert: I guess we found the crux of the matter, then. You can talk about the internal energy of your kettle, because it's a state function, and basically describes how much "thermal energy" is inside your kettle. During a process (e.g. "preparing your tea"), you can transfer energy to your kettle, as heat, for example with a stove. But heat is just energy being transferred. It's not inside the stove or inside the tea. If no work is performed on your tea, you could say that $\Delta U = Q + 0$, so $U2 - U1 = Q$. – Eric Duminil Feb 14 '21 at 00:13
  • @Gert: If you only remember one thing from this whole thread, it is that "The kettle I use for my tea contains heat energy." is nonsensical and should never be written. This isn't a matter of taste, this isn't about notation or about pedantry. This is about the definition of heat, and it's basically the foundation on which thermodynamics is built. I strongly advise you to read the first chapters of "Thermodynamics and an Introduction to Thermostatistics", by Herbert B. Callen or "Fundamentals of Engineering Thermodynamics" by Moran. Don't go to your grave before you read those! – Eric Duminil Feb 14 '21 at 13:26
  • I'm too old to get used to these ideas. As it happens my only work in thermodynamics is with $\text{NLoC}$ and $\text{Fourier 2}$, where $Q(t)$ is well defined and $\mathrm{d}Q$ can be used. But I'll try and use $mc_p\mathrm{d}T$ instead. – Gert Feb 14 '21 at 15:55
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    @Gert Consider two identical boxes filled with the same ideal gas at $300$ K. I adiabiatically compress the first box to 1/2 its original volume, raising its temperature to $300\cdot 2^{2/3}\approx 476$ K. I then isothermally compress the first box to 1/2 its original volume, and then subsequently put it on a hot plate to raise its temperature to match the first box. The initial and final states of both boxes are identical, but heat was delivered to the second box and not the first. Therefore, heat (or more suggestively, heat transfer) is a quantity which is associated [...] – J. Murray Feb 15 '21 at 02:05
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    [...] to a process, not to a state. It makes perfect sense to talk about the amount of heat which has been added to a system during whatever process is under consideration; it also makes sense to talk about how much heat has been delivered to a box since some initial time. But unlike dU (an infinitesimal change in the internal energy due to a change in S,V, or N), there is no function Q of the thermodynamical variables which would make the notation dQ justified in the same way. – J. Murray Feb 15 '21 at 02:06
  • @J.Murray That's a very interesting example, thank you! – Gert Feb 15 '21 at 11:18