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I just wanted to know what the characteristic property of a Lagrangian is?

How do you see without referring to Newtonian Mechanics that it has to be $L=T-V$?

People constructed a Lagrangian in Special Relativity and General Relativity. But is there a general recipe to find a Lagrangian for a theory or is a Lagrangian just chosen so that it works out?

Of course there are some symmetry and invariance properties that play an important role there, but is it possible to put the theory of Lagrangian to a more abstract and general level so that we can say a priori how a Lagrangian for a given theory must look like?

Which information are necessary to construct a Lagrangian for a physical theory?

Qmechanic
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Xin Wang
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  • Related: http://physics.stackexchange.com/q/5648/2451 , http://physics.stackexchange.com/q/20298/2451 , http://physics.stackexchange.com/q/50075/2451 , http://physics.stackexchange.com/q/56626/2451 and links therein. – Qmechanic Jun 24 '13 at 22:45
  • I want to say that this question there is only related to classical mechanics. I am interested in a general way how one rigorously constructs Lagrangians. – Xin Wang Jun 24 '13 at 22:46
  • "How do you see without referring to Newtonian Mechanics that it has to be $L=T−V$?" You may find Elisha Huggins' paper "Gravity, Time, and Lagrangians" enlightening. I did. It's not clear to me that it answers you questions as it assumes General Relativity in order to motivate the minus sign ... – dmckee --- ex-moderator kitten Jun 25 '13 at 00:52
  • If you have a force like $F = F(q)$, it it trivial to construct $V(q)$ - to a constant -, so it is trivial to construct $L$. But if you have, for instance, a force like $F = \dot q$, you are not able to give an explicit Lagrangian. – Trimok Jun 25 '13 at 10:05

3 Answers3

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As far as I know there is no way of rigorously constructing a Lagrangian for a new physical theory. The point is you just have to guess a Lagrangian (i.e. construct your own theory), check all the invariance/symmetry properties you want to have and hope that the predictions your theory makes will agree with the measurements.

The hard part is guessing 'correctly' - as my professor in QFT put it: So far, that 'correct guess' happenend twice, in both cases earning the authors a Nobel Prize (QED and electroweak Lagrangian).

  • You can construct Lagrange's equations from d'Alembert's principle and Newton's F=ma, then assume the generalized forces Q can be constructed from a potential (i.e. Q=-grad(V)) to eventually obtain L=T-V. For details you can refer to Fetter and Walecka's Theoretical Mechanics of Particles and Continua. – PaulisDontExcludeMe Mar 16 '18 at 01:25
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I think that there is no systematic way to build lagrangians, and to me it seems reasonable that things are like so. Despite my true love for theory (I'm actually a theoretical physicist) I try to never forget that, above all, physics is an experimental science. This implies that reality always imposes very strict conditions on phenomena and happens in all theories we have, from the ugliest to the loveliest one. The way we build our lagrangians then must depend on the specific details of our systems (if its is microscopic, macroscopic, moves very fast, moves slow, etc.).

However, the choice of a specific Lagrangian must satisfy, as you said, symmetry and invariance conditions. The expression $L = T - V$ for a closed system in classical mechanics is taken in order to reproduce newton's equations of motion $m d^2 \mathbf r/dt^2 = - \nabla V(\mathbf r)$ after varying the action. There is no way to scape that, since all formulations (Lagrangian, hamiltonian, whatever) of classical mechanics just rely upon newtonian mechanics.

Likewise, the expression $L = -m c^2 \int ds/\gamma$ for a free particle in special relativity is taken so that (i) the Lagrangian conforms with Einstein's postulate that the laws of physics are the same in all inertial frames ($ds^2 = dt^2 - d \mathbf r^2$ is invariant under Lorentz transformations); and (ii) for $v << c$, the kinetic energy of the particle reduces to $m v^2/2$.

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The question of whether/when a system of differential equations describing a law of motion has a Lagrangian formulation is determined by the Helmholtz Conditions.

The Inverse Problem For Lagrangian Mechanics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverse_problem_for_Lagrangian_mechanics

The question of what the Lagrangian represents is that it is a way to generate set of relations between the variables that govern dynamics with the variables that govern kinematics, which may be termed "constitutive relations". Lagrangians generate constitutive relations.

The Lagrangian is one implementation of an underlying geometry, called a "symplectic" geometry that connects kinematic variables with their conjugate dynamic variables, in the description of dynamics and laws of motion. The Hamiltonian is another.

The realization that such a deep-seated infrastructure, related to symplectic geometry, underlies many or most of the fundamental theories in physics was relatively slow in the coming, but it is all-pervasive. It wasn't any kind of "ah ha!" moment, but just a realization that slowly creeped up on everyone over the years.

It is an infrastructure that is shared in both classical physics and quantum physics and is a feature centrally involved in the bridge that connects the two.

If $q^1, q^2, q^3, ...$ are the kinematic variables entering the description of a system, then $p_1, p_2, p_3, ...$ are the corresponding conjugate dynamic variables. The archetypal example is the position of a body $\left(q^1, q^2, q^3\right) = (x, y, z)$ and its corresponding momentum $\left(p_1, p_2, p_3\right) = \left(p_x, p_y, p_z\right)$.

Two sets of laws are satisfied by these quantities - the "kinematic laws" that connect the components of the corresponding velocities $\left(v^1, v^2, v^3, ...\right)$: $$v^a = \frac{dq^a}{dt} \hspace 1em (a = 1, 2, 3, ...),$$ and the "dynamic laws" that connect the components of the corresponding forces $\left(f_1, f_2, f_3, ...\right)$: $$f_a = \frac{dp_a}{dt} \hspace 1em (a = 1, 2, 3, ...).$$

The Lagrangian is one way to connect the two sets of quantities; a connection which could be considered as "constitutive relations" that determine the structure of the system being described by the dynamics. A typical example are the relations used in dynamics for gravitational motion: $$\left(p_1, p_2, p_3\right) = m \left(v^1, v^2, v^3\right), \hspace 1em \left(f_1, f_2, f_3\right) = -\frac{GM}{{q^1}^2 + {q^2}^2 + {q^3}^2} \frac{\left(q^1, q^2, q^3\right)}{\sqrt{{q^1}^2 + {q^2}^2 + {q^3}^2}}.$$

Although the example illustrates the dynamics for just one body, you actually throw in all the coordinates of all the parts that describe the overall system - meaning: all the coordinates of all the bodies that make up the system and whatever other attributes describe the system.

What was gradually discovered is at the center of the underlying infrastructure is a basic object that is cast in the language of differential forms and is called the "symplectic two-form": $$ω = dp_1 ∧ dq^1 + dp_2 ∧ dq^2 + dp_3 ∧ dq^3 + ...$$

As a point of note, differential forms follow a Grassmann algebra, which means (for instance) $da ∧ db = -db ∧ da$, for odd-degree differential forms. Each of the $dp_a$ and $dq^a$ are degree 1, while wedge products add degrees, so $ω$ and its individual terms are each degree 2. Degree 0 differential forms are just ordinary scalars.

Differential forms are also the native language of symplectic geometry.

The key statement involving $ω$ is that it possesses symmetries with respect to certain types of geometric transforms or other transforms. This implements a "relativity" principle for the dynamics.

Chief amongst these is that the dynamics should be symmetric with respect to translation in time. This is implemented by taking the time derivative of $ω$ and setting it to 0. The actual operation is called a "Lie derivative" and would look like this: $$\begin{align} _{d/dt} ω &= _{d/dt} \left(\sum_a dp_a ∧ dq^a\right) \\ &= \sum_a \left(_{d/dt} \left(dp_a\right) ∧ dq^a + dp_a ∧ _{d/dt} \left(dq^a\right)\right) \\ &= \sum_a \left(d\left(_{d/dt} p_a\right) ∧ dq^a + dp_a ∧ d\left(_{d/dt} q^a\right)\right) \\ &= \sum_a \left(d\left(\frac{dp_a}{dt}\right) ∧ dq^a + dp_a ∧ d\left(\frac{dq^a}{dt}\right)\right) \\ &= \sum_a \left(df_a ∧ dq^a + dp_a ∧ dv^a\right). \\ \end{align}$$

Setting this to zero results in: $$ \sum_a \left(df_a ∧ dq^a + dp_a ∧ dv^a\right) = 0 $$ and out of this arises the general form for the constitutive laws that connect the dynamic and kinematic variables to one another; the cloth out of which all the formulations - be they Hamiltonian, Lagrangian or otherwise - are cut.

The different formulations are different ways to integrate this equation. One way, used for Hamiltonians is: $$\begin{align} 0 &= \sum_a \left(df_a ∧ dq^a + dp_a ∧ dv^a\right) \\ &= \sum_a \left(df_a ∧ dq^a - dv^a ∧ dp_a\right) \\ &= \sum_a \left(d(f_a dq^a) - d(v^a dp_a)\right) \\ &= d\left(\sum_a \left(f_a dq^a - v^a dp_a\right)\right). \end{align}$$ Here, some algebra for differential forms is used: $d(fdg) = df∧dg$, where $f$ is a scalar and $g$ is a differential form (which includes scalars as a special case).

A solution to this is that there be a function $H$ that has the scalar coefficients are its differential coefficients: $$\frac{∂H}{∂q^a} = f_a, \hspace 1em \frac{∂H}{∂p_a} = -v^a.$$

So, $H$ generates a set of constitutive relations between the two sets of quantities that have $\left(q^a, p_a: a = 1, 2, 3, ...\right)$ as their independent variables.

The Hamiltonian is a function that generates constitutive relations for the $v$'s and $f$'s in terms of the $q$'s and $p$'s.

Another solution is a function $L$ that has the scalar coefficients of this $$\begin{align} 0 &= \sum_a \left(df_a ∧ dq^a + dp_a ∧ dv^a\right) \\ &= \sum_a \left(d\left(f_a dq^a\right) + d\left(p_a dv^a\right)\right) \\ &= d\left(\sum_a \left(f_a dq^a + p_a dv^a\right)\right) \end{align}$$ as its differential coefficients. That would be the Lagrangian: $$\frac{∂L}{∂q^a} = f_a, \hspace 1em \frac{∂L}{∂v^a} = p_a.$$

The Lagrangian generates constitutive relations for the dynamic variables - the $p$'s and $f$'s - in terms of the kinematic variables - the $q$'s and $v$'s.

In the first case, if you substitute directly into the kinematic and dynamic laws, then you get: $$\frac{∂H}{∂q^a} = \frac{dp_a}{dt}, \hspace 1em \frac{∂H}{∂p_a} = -\frac{dq^a}{dt},$$ while in the second case, substitution leads to: $$v^a = \frac{dq^a}{dt}, \hspace 1em \frac{∂L}{∂q^a} = \frac{d}{dt}\left(\frac{∂L}{∂v^a}\right).$$

Other combinations are possible. You could switch some of the $p$'s and $v$'s with one another, or some of the $q$'s and $f$'s, in the equation for $_{d/dt} ω = 0$ and its integral.

Applying this to the example involving gravitational motion, in vector form, one has: $$ = m = \frac{∂L}{∂}, \hspace 1em = -\frac{GM}{||^2} \frac{}{||} = \frac{∂L}{∂},$$ thus, $$dL = m·d - \frac{GM}{||^2} \frac{·d}{||} = d\left(\frac{m||^2}{2} + \frac{GM}{||}\right),$$ leading to $$L = \frac{m||^2}{2} + \frac{GM}{||} + L_0,$$ for some constant $L_0$.

For the Hamiltonian formulation, you would have: $$ = \frac{}{m} = \frac{∂H}{∂}, \hspace 1em = -\frac{GM}{||^2} \frac{}{||} = -\frac{∂H}{∂},$$ thus, $$dH = \frac{}{m}·d + \frac{GM}{||^2} \frac{·d}{||} = d\left(\frac{||^2}{2m} - \frac{GM}{||}\right),$$ leading to $$H = \frac{||^2}{2m} - \frac{GM}{||} + H_0,$$ for some constant $H_0$.

NinjaDarth
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  • Lagrangian mechanics is not the same thing as Hamiltonian formalism. The symplectic structure is the natural conceptual formalism only for that latter. – GiorgioP-DoomsdayClockIsAt-90 Sep 08 '23 at 06:08
  • That's nice, and thank you for sharing that. However, I never said they were (and it was wrong for you to read any such inference) but only that they are both cut from the same cloth, both established on a deeper common foundation. This is discussed in further depth, for instance, in LNP 107. And no, the symplectic structure is the foundation for both of the formalisms, as made clear there. – NinjaDarth Sep 08 '23 at 11:52