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When we say that quantum mechanics reproduces classical mechanics at macroscopic scales, is it a statement about the center of mass of a macroscopic system?

More specifically, let $\psi (x)$ be the wavefunction of the CoM co-ordinate of a macroscopic system. Let the CoM position and momentum operator be $X$ and $P$. Then, is the claim that:

$$\frac{d}{dt} \langle \psi|P|\psi \rangle =\left(-\frac{dV}{dx}\right)_{x= (\langle \psi |X|\psi \rangle)}$$

$$\frac{d}{dt} \langle \psi |X|\psi \rangle =\frac{1}{m}\langle \psi |P|\psi \rangle$$

Is this what we claim when we say quantum mechanics reproduces classical mechanics? If no, what is the claim?

If yes, how can one derive this fact about the CoM wavefunction? These equations are almost the same as Ehrenfest's theorem.

I think maybe these equations rely on the claim that the fluctuations of the CoM wavefunction about the mean are small. Then how can one show that the fluctuations of the CoM wavefunction about the mean are always small for macroscopic systems? How exactly do the fluctuations become small just because there are too many particles?

Roger V.
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Egg Man
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  • Have you looked into WKB approximation? – Prof. Legolasov Mar 28 '22 at 07:00
  • Possible duplicates: https://physics.stackexchange.com/q/653251/2451 and links therein. – Qmechanic Mar 28 '22 at 07:59
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    a system consisting of many particles quantum mechanically is modeled with the density matrix, so that the wavefunctions of the individual particles and their coherent behavior can be understood. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Density_matrix .This chapter might help https://quantum.phys.cmu.edu/CQT/chaps/cqt26.pdf – anna v Mar 28 '22 at 10:42
  • Related and useful (Ehrenfest theorem) https://physics.stackexchange.com/a/800488/226902 – Quillo Feb 07 '24 at 02:52

1 Answers1

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Classical limit may mean several things in quantum mechanics:

  • Ehrenfest theorem shows that the averaged quantum equations of motion have the same form as the classical equations of motion. In case of an oscillator this readily reduces to the center-of-mass motion. However, for a more complex potentials we have $$ \langle V(x)\rangle = V(\langle x\rangle) + \left[\langle V(x)\rangle - V(\langle x\rangle)\right]. $$ Showing that the correction in the right-hand-side is small requires making certain assumptions about the wave function used for averaging, which are covered by the correspondence principle.
  • WKB/quasiclassical approximation Closely related way to see the link between classical and quantum mechanics is that the most probably trajectories for particles are the classical ones (in the path integral language these correspond to the extremum of the action). Again, this happens only under certain conditions: one can think of an example of a two-well potential, where the behavior would become classical only if the barrier is very thick and we can neglect the tunneling.
  • Decoherence Both bullets above didn't really deal with macroscopic objects in thermodynamic sense: an object may be big and still behave as a quantum one. In case of many particle systems or when a quantum object is coupled to an environment, the classical behavior for averages is achieved due to decoherence, i.e., the energy and momentum exchange with other particles/environment. In this case one can arrive at the center-of-mass equations of motion, but this requires that the thermodynamic averaging is done alongside the quantum mechanical averaging (see also Is quantum mechanics applicable to only small things? and Is there an equivalence between the creation of a wavefunction and the collapse of a wavefunction?).

Example
As a simple way to get some intuition, one could consider a Gaussian wave packet $$ \psi(x)=\frac{1}{(2\pi\sigma^2)^{1/4}}e^{-\frac{(x-x_0)^2}{4\sigma^2}}, |\psi(x)|^2=\frac{1}{\sqrt{2\pi\sigma^2}}e^{-\frac{(x-x_0)^2}{2\sigma^2}}, \langle x\rangle = \int dx x|\psi(x)|^2 = x_0. $$ Then $$ \langle V(x)\rangle = V(x_0)\langle e^{\log V(x)-\log V(x_0)}\rangle \approx V(x_0)\langle e^{\alpha(x-x_0)+\frac{1}{2}\beta (x-x_0)^2}\rangle = V(x_0)\frac{1}{\sqrt{1+\sigma^2\beta}}e^{\frac{\sigma^2\alpha^2}{1+\sigma^2\beta}},\\ \alpha = \frac{d}{dx}\log V(x)|_{x=x_0},\beta = \frac{d^2}{dx^2}\log V(x)|_{x=x_0}. $$ The center-of-mass description then holds for $$ \sigma^2|\beta| = \sigma^2\left|\frac{d^2}{dx^2}\log V(x)|_{x=x_0}\right|\ll 1,\\ \sigma^2\alpha^2 = \sigma^2\left|\frac{d}{dx}\log V(x)|_{x=x_0}\right|^2\ll 1, $$ i.e., when the potential is smooth on the characteristic scale of the wave function change.

Roger V.
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  • Why is it that my football obeys classical mechanics though (approximately)? Is that because of decoherence or Etherfest's theorem? If it's Etherfest's theorem, then what guarantees that the fluctuations about mean in the football are small? – Egg Man Apr 28 '22 at 08:50
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    The oscillator's mean values exactly obeys classical equations even when the fluctuations can be arbitrarily large – Egg Man Apr 28 '22 at 08:51
  • Do you mean Etherfest's theorem, combined with classical averaging, will produce the CoM equations in my post? Does that mean that classical averaging kind-of guarantees that the fluctuations are small? Do you have a link to that derivation? – Egg Man Apr 28 '22 at 09:04
  • @EggMan I mention C60 molecules in one of the linked answers - they can be made to obey the quantum mechanical laws, though they are admittedly smaller than a football. So the answer in this case is decoherence... although at high energies and momenta the Ehrenfest theorem might be enough. You may also like reading this one: Do double slit experiment with big balls – Roger V. Apr 28 '22 at 09:06
  • What do you mean by classical averaging? The averaging in my example is not classical - it is quantum averaging in x-representation. – Roger V. Apr 28 '22 at 09:06
  • I meant thermodynamic averaging..I guess. I just mean the weighted average that we do in classical probability theory. So will quantum averaging plus classical averaging over millions of particles reproduce the CoM eqns in the my post? Also, I have one problem with the double slit experiment with big balls. It assumes that the ball is a single extremely massive particle. Such a ball will obey classical equations due to small fluctuations, but in reality, there's no such thing as a single particle of mass 1Kg. Such balls have to be systems of quantum particles. – Egg Man Apr 28 '22 at 09:10
  • The same problem occurs when we take the classical limit of the path integral. The path integral indeed will prefer the classical path for a single particle of mass 1Kg. But in reality, there's no such thing as a single particle of mass 1Kg. In reality, the things which actually obey classical mechanics are things like footballs, which aren't single particles. – Egg Man Apr 28 '22 at 09:17
  • I know that Etherfest's theorem have quantum averaging. In your third point, you mention that, if we also do a thermodynamic averaging, we'd arrive at the CoM eqns in my post. I took thermodynamic averaging to mean classical averaging. How exactly does thermodynamic averaging guarantee that the fluctuations are small? Do you have a link to that derivation? – Egg Man Apr 28 '22 at 09:25
  • @EggMan This is why we do not treat a ball of 1kg as a single particle, but as a many-particle-system, which needs to be described using the thermodynamic averaging. Statistical physics is well developed for quantum systems - there is no talk about classical averaging here. We work with the density matrix instead of the wave function, etc. – Roger V. Apr 28 '22 at 09:26
  • The sources I've read aren't careful about this. They talk about the propagator calculation of a single particle using the path integral formalism. And then they take the limit "Mass becomes large". I've seen even posts on stackexchange do this. They never mention that they're talking about the CoM propagator or anything like that. – Egg Man Apr 28 '22 at 09:28
  • Here is another post on the subject Will tennis ball produce same interference pattern in double slit experiment if everything was scaled up? There is a link to an article where the experiment was done - you could try to search for the relevant calculation, but it is not a textbook stuff. One can decompose quantum motion into the motion of the center of mass, and the motion in respect to it - it does not by itself make this motion classical, it is just a transformation of coordinates. – Roger V. Apr 28 '22 at 09:32