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Let's consider 2 point particle graviting the one around the other. Can that gravitational field be considered conservative? I can go from A to B and then, after a time $\Delta t$ come back to A with a non zero work. I imagine the objection: the closed loop has to be done at infinite speed. But if this is the case why in "Why can't conservative forces depend on velocity?" It is said that conservative forces are time independent? I'm confused. Can the time dependent force field I mentioned be considerated conservative? Isn't its potential $-G\frac{m_1 m_2}{d_{12}}$ even if both masses are finite and so both moving?

Edit

In other words. Lets consider a situation like the following: consider a test particle in the gravitational field of a moving object. If we move the particle along a loop starting and ending at A, then the gravitational potential at A has changed by the time the particle comes back, and so the net work done on the particle is non-zero. So this gravitational field is not conservative? I must say that gravitational field is conservative only if it is time independent? Is it in some way meaningfull to speak about potential energy of a time dependent field?

Qmechanic
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  • @JAlex is a gravitational field conservative or not conservative depending the frame in which the field is observed? –  May 14 '22 at 11:40

2 Answers2

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Conservativeness of a field is defined based on its state at single point of time. The closed path trip of the particle is only imagined, it is not supposed to take non-zero time.

So it makes no sense to argue that loop integral, done over non-zero time, is non-zero, makes the field non-conservative.

Field is conservative in some region of space when loop integral over every loop entirely inside that region is zero.

  • If this is the case, It should be downvoted the upvoted Ron Maimon answer in https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/27896/can-a-force-in-an-explicitly-time-dependent-classical-system-be-conservative –  May 13 '22 at 21:50
  • Both the question there and Ron's answer are dealing with different idea: what "conservative force" means or should mean in time-dependent situations. Whatever the answer to this tricky question is, this does not change the standard meaning of "conservative field", which depends only on status of the field in space at single point of time. – Ján Lalinský May 13 '22 at 22:50
  • But if -kt/r^2 (k constant, t time, r distance from origin) is conservative, then "Every time dependent force is non-conservative" is simply wrong. It isn't? –  May 14 '22 at 00:47
  • Yes, it is conservative field by the common definition. The linked question and Ron's answer are trying to analyze what the term "conservative force" would or should mean, based on real closed paths that take time, not what "conservative field" is, which is a clear term with exact definition. – Ján Lalinský May 14 '22 at 01:58
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Let't consider 2 point particle graviting the one around the other. Can that gravitational field be considered conservative? I can go from A to B and then, after a time $\Delta t$ come back to A with a non zero work. I imagine the objection: the closed loop has to be done at infinite speed. But if this is the case why in "Why can't conservative forces depend on velocity?" It is said that conservative forces are time independent? I'm confused. Can the time dependent force field I metioned be considerated conservative? Isn't its potential $-G\frac{m_1 m_2}{d_{12}}$ even if both masses are finite and so both moving?

Do not confuse an external force with an internal force. You can consider both particles to be part of the dynamical system, but then there is no external force. The Hamiltonian is: $$ H = \frac{p_1^2}{2m_1} + \frac{p_2^2}{2m_2} - \frac{Gm_1m_2}{|\vec r_1 - \vec r_2|}\;. $$

The force on particle 1 is: $$ -\frac{\partial H}{\partial \vec r_1} = \frac{Gm_1m_2(\vec r_2 - \vec r_1)}{|\vec r_1 - \vec r_2|^3}\;. $$

The force on particle 2 is: $$ -\frac{\partial H}{\partial \vec r_2} = \frac{Gm_1m_2(\vec r_1 - \vec r_2)}{|\vec r_1 - \vec r_2|^3}\;, $$ (as expected from Newton's third law).

This Hamiltonian is a conserved quantity when the system is closed (both particles 1 and 2 Hamiltonian-dynamical): $$ \frac{dH}{dt} = 0 $$

This conservation follows directly from the equations of motion: $$ \frac{\partial H}{\partial \vec r_1} = -\dot {\vec p_1}\;, $$ $$ \frac{\partial H}{\partial \vec p_1} = \dot {\vec r_1}\;, $$ etc for particle 2.

You can see this explicitly because: $$ \frac{dH}{dt} = \frac{\partial H}{\partial \vec r_1}\cdot \dot{\vec r_1} +\frac{\partial H}{\partial \vec r_2}\cdot \dot{\vec r_2} +\frac{\partial H}{\partial \vec p_1}\cdot \dot{\vec p_1} +\frac{\partial H}{\partial \vec p_2}\cdot \dot{\vec p_2} $$ $$ =\frac{\partial H}{\partial \vec r_1}\cdot \frac{\partial H}{\partial \vec p_1} +\frac{\partial H}{\partial \vec r_2}\cdot \frac{\partial H}{\partial \vec p_2} -\frac{\partial H}{\partial \vec p_1}\cdot \frac{\partial H}{\partial \vec r_1} -\frac{\partial H}{\partial \vec p_2}\cdot \frac{\partial H}{\partial \vec r_2} $$ $$ =0 $$


Update based on OP's update

In other words. Lets consider a situation like the following: consider a test particle in the gravitational field of a moving object. If we move the particle along a loop starting and ending at A, then the gravitational potential at A has changed by the time the particle comes back, and so the net work done on the particle is non-zero. So this gravitational field is not conservative? I must say that gravitational field is conservative only if it is time independent? Is it in some way meaningfull to speak about potential energy of a time dependent field?

If you treat one of the masses as external to the system and move it around in a non-trivial time-dependent way, it will look like a time-dependent potential to the other mass. Then you will be treating that other mass as a single particle in a time-dependent field.

Suppose we only wanted to treat one particle dynamically, and the other as a parameter that we move around with arbitrary time dependence. Then we would have: $$ H = \frac{p}{2m} - \frac{GmM}{|\vec r - \vec R(t)|}\;, $$ where I put $r_1 \to r$, $r_2 \to R$, etc.

In either case (whether particle 2 is dynamical or not) we could say the force on particle 1 is conservative since either: $$ \vec \nabla_1 \times \vec F_1 = 0\;, $$ or $$ \vec \nabla \times \vec F = 0\;. $$

But the energy is not conserved in the latter case in general, since: $$ \frac{dH}{dt} = \frac{\partial H}{\partial \vec R}\cdot \dot{\vec R}\;. $$

We have to supply or remove energy to keep the non-dynamical particle 2 moving about in its fixed time-dependent path $\vec R(t)$.

hft
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  • If we consider a particle at rest, and the other in its field, fictious forces are to be considered, and in general potential energy in such case is not defined. I'm not sure about what do you mean when you say to consider particle 1 as a particle, and particle 2 as a parameter. –  May 13 '22 at 22:04
  • I mean, treat particle 1 as dynamic (it has a momentum term in the Hamiltonian, etc) and treat particle 2 as externally controlled (it just sources the potential, its dynamics are not controlled by the Hamiltonian). – hft May 13 '22 at 22:40