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A ship goes to the moon at 0,5 c, the captain will record on his clock about 2 seconds and a half, right?

Now he increases the speed to 0,999 c (or more), thanks to relativity he should record on his clock less than 1 second, and believe he has travelled much faster than light.

Is there something wrong in this example or it is just so?

Edit: it does not matter if the distance has shrunk or not, it is a hard fact that he has travelled 380 000 Km in less then a second

EDIT 2: I am sorry you miss the point of my question. Two or more people are may repeat what SR says, but I maintain that it is an indisputable fact that the captain measure by his clock that he travelled at 2C

MOreover, I add, it is a hard fact that according to SR the very speed of light is NOT invariant, since the captain measures a speed twice as fast if he flashes a torch in the direction of motion and in a normal direction. Can you refute that?

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    Two people have answered your question correctly but you insist on ignoring what they have said. What is the point of asking a question if you refuse to accept factually correct answers? – Marco Ocram May 30 '22 at 16:32
  • the question is NOT answered correctly, because nobody addressed the statement that it is a fact that he measures 40 sec his trip to the moon which is notoriously 380000 Km away – user157860 May 31 '22 at 09:00
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    It is answered correctly, because notoriously the distance to the moon is frame dependent. – Marco Ocram May 31 '22 at 10:05
  • read my comment to John Rennie – user157860 May 31 '22 at 10:13
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    I've read all your comments and edits. You clearly misunderstand SR, and you clearly are not open to learning about it. – Marco Ocram May 31 '22 at 10:41
  • you are wrong i understand it quite well, I am just pointing out some facts and some weird conclusions, which a fan of SR refuses to see – user157860 May 31 '22 at 10:55
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    it is a hard fact that according to SR the very speed of light is NOT invariant SR is basically the result when assuming the speed of light in a vacuum is invariant & the laws of physics hold in all reference frames. Your hard facts are "hard misconceptions", by the looks of it. – Allure Jun 01 '22 at 11:16
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    I think the problem is that no one mentioned that for an observer from the earth frame, the captain would not take the same time as from the captains frame when viewing the captain travelling at that speed. Probably missing this point is what is causing the misconceptions of the asker. – Shimura Variety Jun 17 '22 at 09:17
  • Does anyone know why this question got so many downvotes? Seems like something to learn from. – ACertainArchangel Dec 08 '22 at 22:00

3 Answers3

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You say:

Edit: it does not matter if the distance has shrunk or not, it is a hard fact that he has travelled 380 000 Km in less then a second

but you need to take care with this statement. It should say:

The captain knows that the Earth observer measured his distance travelled as 380000 km

You can certainly divide the distance measured by Earth by the time measured by the captain and you'll get an answer greater than $c$. The problem is that this is a meaningless result since you are dividing quantities measured in different inertial frames. The result cannot be a speed measured by any observer.

The bottom line is that:

  • the Earth observer measured the ship travelling towards the Moon at less than $c$

  • the captain measured the Moon travelling towards their ship at less than $c$

So no observer measured a speed greater than $c$.

John Rennie
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  • One might accept that time can be dilated, but how can you (on Einstein's behalf) imagine that space can be compressed ? And, granting it can, what who can influence it? How can a ship modify the lattice of the universe? A theory cannot ignore such fundamental questions. If you travel at near c the distance to the moon becomes 1 mm This does need some physics to explain and justify, doesn't it? – user157860 May 30 '22 at 09:53
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    @user157860 This is discussed in detail in my answer to "Reality" of length contraction in SR. – John Rennie May 30 '22 at 10:00
  • can you explain my second edit, please? – user157860 May 31 '22 at 09:04
  • When talking about GR you said :"space is not an object and can't be stretched" and "The "stretching" is an analogy used in popular science writing because it's easy for us to visualise, but in GR nothing is stretching.The "curvature" is actually a mathematical property of a coordinate system. Space is not actually curved....when you start learning the maths you realise that "curved space" is really just a metaphor for what is actually going on.The maths works...But whether the math is actually describing what is really going on is a question we can't answer. Is this not valid for SR2? – user157860 May 31 '22 at 09:32
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To support what the earlier answers are saying, consider this "position-vs-time diagram" (spacetime diagram) with time running upwards.

To make the arithmetic easier, I'll use $v=(3/5)c=(0.6)c$ [instead of 0.5c].
$\gamma=\frac{1}{\sqrt{1-(v/c)^2}}=5/4$ and $k=\sqrt{\frac{1+(v/c)}{1-(v/c)}}=2$.

For simplicity, assume that the Earth is an inertial frame and the Moon is at rest relative to the Earth.

In the diagram below, let "1 tick" be "(1/4)second".

  • "Length" is the spatial-separation between parallel worldlines.
    Thus, the "proper-length from Earth to the Moon" is [approximately] (5/4=)1.25 light-seconds (5 diamond-widths). This is the length according to the inertial frame where the Earth is at rest.

  • "Velocity of an object" according to an observer is the "slope" (="rise of position"/"run in time") $\Delta x/\Delta t$ of the object's worldline, as measured by that observer. .
    Thus, according to the Earth, the Moon is at rest and the Rocket moves with velocity 0.6c since "$3/5=0.6$" and "$5/8.333=0.6$" since the Rocket arrives at the Moon at time 8.333 ticks (2.08 seconds) after traveling 5 light-ticks (1.25 light-seconds).. all measured by the Earth.

RRGP-robphy

Now what does the inertial Rocket measure for its trip to the Moon?
According to special relativity,

  • The Moon traveled "-4 light-ticks" as measured by the Rocket. (That the magnitude is shorter than 5 light-ticks is "Length Contraction", as others have said. We have (4 light-ticks)/(5 light-ticks)=$\frac{1}{\gamma}=\frac{1}{(5/4)}$=(4/5).)
    The Rocket's wristwatch reads 6.667 ticks [as measured by the Rocket].
    This implies that the Rocket measures the velocity of the Moon to be "rise/run" $(-4 \mbox{ light-ticks})/(6.667 \mbox{ ticks})=(-0.6)c$, as expected.

    As a check, note that $(3)^2-(5)^2=(0)^2-(4)^2$, which is the square-interval from $O$ to $D_A$, where $D_A$ is the event the Rocket says is simultaneous with the separation event $O$.

    As another check, note that $(8.333)^2-(5)^2=(6.667)^2-(0)^2$, which is the square-interval from $O$ to $M_A$. "Time-dilation" is the effect that the earth measures the larger value of "8.333 ticks" (as the elapsed Earth-time from $O$ to $M_A$) for the Rocket's "6.666 ticks" as (as the elapsed Rocket-time from $O$ to $M_A$, where the inertial Rocket visits both $O$ and $M_A$). We have (8.333 ticks)/(6.667 ticks)=$\gamma$=(5/4).)

    It is important that velocity=rise/run is computed using the observer-measurements of displacements in space and time. One cannot mix Rocket-measurements and EarthMoon-measurements... since the resulting ratios are not the slopes of these worldlines on the position-vs-time diagram drawn by any of these observers.

    UPDATE:
    For instance, for the Rocket worldline segment from $O$ to $M_A$ $$\frac{\Delta x_{Earth}}{\Delta t_{Rocket}}=\frac{5\mbox{ light-ticks}}{6.667\mbox{ ticks}}=\frac{3}{4}c=(0.75)c$$ $$\frac{\Delta x_{Rocket}}{\Delta t_{Earth}}=\frac{-4\mbox{ light-ticks}}{8.333\mbox{ ticks}}=\frac{-12}{25}c=(-0.48)c$$ While one can form these and many other ratios, these ratios have no immediate physical interpretation.

For other rocket-speeds, values will change according to special relativity.
But one will find that the Moon-velocity in the Rocket-frame is minus the Rocket-Velocity in the [Earth-]Moon-frame... and neither velocity will reach $c$, let alone exceed it, as the other answers have said.

robphy
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  • That position vs time diagram looks a lot like the ether - an objective frame of reference. – Gavin Williams Jul 11 '22 at 11:41
  • @GavinWilliams Why do say that? Because of the graph paper? The drawn diamonds are modeled after the spacetime paths of light signals in their light-clocks. The geometry implied by the diagram is consistent with the equations of special relativity. (The lightlike directions (the slope of the gridlines) are Lorentz invariant. However the grid spacing depends on the observer. One can use the same drawn diamonds with a grid modeled after the blue diamonds.) – robphy Jul 11 '22 at 12:07
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There is something wrong in this example, and it is ... believe he has travelled much faster than light. He has no reason to believe this.

What actually happens (if we expand the phrase "thanks to relativity") is that the ship's captain observes the distance to the Moon shrinking as he speeds up the ship. This phenomenon is known as length contraction, and is how he can get to the Moon in a fraction of a second, but still don't think he has moved faster than light.

Edit:

it is a hard fact that he has travelled 380 000 Km in less then a second

It is not a hard fact that he has travelled 380,000 km in less than a second, and you perceive there's a problem because you have this misconception. Welcome to Relativity - you will meet more of these "weirdness" if you keep studying the theory.

Allure
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  • the captain must not know or care about SR, he does measure that he travelled to the moon in less than one second – user157860 May 30 '22 at 09:20
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    @user157860 sure, but he doesn't think he travelled 380,000 km. See the edit. – Allure May 30 '22 at 09:21
  • he knows, for sure that the distance to the moon is such, the more so because he travelled a few minutes before and had a proof: 0,5 c = 2,32 sec – user157860 May 30 '22 at 09:27
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    @user157860 I just told you it's not 380,000km. Have you worked through the math on length contraction to see what the actual length he measures is? – Allure May 30 '22 at 09:29
  • And I told you that the captain need not know or care about what Einstein says. As a matter of fact he is positive that space is not elastic and can't be compressed, and, even if it could , he does not see how it can be influenced by his ship. He knows for sure , like everybody, the distance to the moon – user157860 May 30 '22 at 09:38
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    @user157860 He knows for sure , like everybody, the distance to the moon he might think he knows the distance, but he better not measure it or he might find that he didn't know it after all – Umaxo May 30 '22 at 11:14
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    @user157860, if the captain wants to ignore physics to record a speed greater than c in his log book, why go to all the trouble of actually flying to the moon? Why not just take out his log book and write down "3 c" or whatever he wants? – The Photon May 30 '22 at 16:05