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I am someone who works in mathematics, works with operators, and tries to interpret things in terms of a "toy" QM that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with actual QM. Two things in the below, which outlines the "toy" QM that I employ, that might not happen in any real QM theory is that A) I have a system with trivial dynamics and B) this means I can talk about sequential measurement.

This might be a maths question rather than a physics question (but if it it a maths question rather than a physics question, then it needs to be asked in a different way somewhere else).


Suppose a QM system given by Hilbert space $\mathsf{H}$, and suppose the system state is given by a state $\varphi:B(\mathsf{H})\to \mathbb{C}$. Consider a finite spectrum observable with eigendecomposition $$f=\sum_{\lambda\in \sigma(f)}\lambda \,p_\lambda,$$ a self-adjoint element of $B(\mathsf{H})$. Given the state $\varphi$, we say that the expectation of $f$ is: $$\mathbb{E}_\varphi(f)=\varphi(f),$$ and the probability that we measure $\varphi$ with $f$ and get $f=\lambda$ is $$\mathbb{P}_\varphi[f=\lambda]=\varphi(p_\lambda),$$ and the state collapses to: $$\widetilde{p_\lambda}\varphi= \frac{\varphi(p_\lambda \cdot p_\lambda)}{\varphi(p_\lambda)}.$$ If we represent $\varphi$ as a vector state $\xi_\varphi$, the wave function collapse is $\xi_\varphi\mapsto p_\lambda \xi_\varphi$ in projective Hilbert space.

If we assume trivial dynamics (the unitary operator is the identity), then we can, after measuring $\varphi$ with $f$, getting $f=\lambda$, and finding the system state is $\widetilde{p_{\lambda}}\varphi$, take another finite spectrum observable $$g=\sum_{\mu \in\sigma(g)}\mu\,q_\mu,$$ and measure the state $\widetilde{p_{\lambda}}\varphi$ with it. We might write that: $$\mathbb{P}_{\widetilde{p_{\lambda}}\varphi}[g=\mu]=\frac{\varphi(p_\lambda q_\mu p_\lambda)}{\varphi(p_\lambda)}.$$

Now we know that in general $gf$ is not an observable but I consider this sequential measurement "$f$ then $g$" (I have used $g\succ f$) an object with values in $\sigma(f)\times \sigma(g)\subset \mathbb{R}^2$, and crucially it gives meaning to quantities like $q_\mu p_\lambda$ via: $$\mathbb{P}_{\varphi}[(g\succ f)=(\mu,\lambda)]=\varphi(|q_\mu p_\lambda|^2),$$

where of course $|q_\mu p_\lambda|^2=p_\lambda q_\mu p_{\lambda}$.


This to me gives an intuitive algebra (product/multiplication) structure on observables: that if $f,g\in B(\mathsf{H})$ are observables, the quantity $gf\in B(\mathsf{H})$, not an observable, is related to an $\mathbb{R}^2$-valued object $g\succ f$. So when I look at the place $\mathcal{A}\subset B(\mathsf{H})$ where observables live, I want it to have an algebra structure, $f,g\in \mathcal{A}\implies gf\in\mathcal{A}$.

What I still don't understand, and I understand it is still an issue with mainstream QM, is that $g+f$ is an observable whenever $f$ and $g$ are. So in addition to the multiplication I have $f,g\in \mathcal{A}\implies f+g\in \mathcal{A}$. I don't expect today for someone to help interpret this (beyond perhaps using some observable-state duality).

Let us summarise right here (glossing over a desire that $\mathcal{A}$ be complete) that we want $\mathcal{A}$ to be a $\mathrm{C}^*$-algebra. It allows us to make sense of $gf$ and we just kind of put up with $g+f$.


Recently however I have seen people in the area of maths I work in use Operator Systems. These are closed, self-adjoint unital subspaces of $\mathcal{O}\subset B(\mathsf{H})$ (or $\mathcal{O}\subset \mathcal{A}$), where we don't require the algebra structure $f,g\in\mathcal{O}\implies gf\in \mathcal{O}$ but we do require the vector structure: $$f,g\in\mathcal{O}\implies g+f\in\mathcal{O}.$$

Finally, hopefully a focused question:

Why would a QM theory work with operator systems rather than operator algebras?

  • Why is $f,g\in \mathcal{A}\rightarrow f+g\in \mathcal{A}$ an issue? Observables include all bounded self-adjoint linear operators, so if $f,g$ are observables, so should be $f+g$. – Meng Cheng Sep 19 '22 at 13:02
  • @MengCheng note we need not include ALL bounded self-adjoint linear operators here... but both operator spaces and systems are closed under this addition. Why is this an issue? See here: https://physics.stackexchange.com/q/498675/ – JP McCarthy Sep 19 '22 at 13:06
  • Your issue is more about actually designing a measurement for $f+g$, but as a matter of principle, there should be a way to measure $f+g$ (maybe the measurement will be completely different from either of $f$ or $g$, maybe it is very complicated, but always possible), and this is a basic axiom of the mathematical foundation of QM. Here is a simple example: take a spin-1/2, $A=\sigma^x$ and $B=\sigma^z$. Then $\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}(\sigma^x + \sigma^z)$ is measuring spin along $\pi/4$ direction in the x-z plane. It is a perfectly fine observable and in this case we know how to measure it. – Meng Cheng Sep 19 '22 at 13:16
  • @MengCheng Have we any hope of interpreting the sum of a position and momentum observable? I note the question is closer to asking why should observables live in a space with a product. The vector structure present in both the algebra and system. – JP McCarthy Sep 19 '22 at 14:50
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    well it depends on what you mean by "interpreting". It almost seems like you would like to have a concrete protocol for a physical experiment to accept something as "observable". But that is not necessary. Observables are things that can in principle be measured, but don't have to be things that you can immediately construct a measurement protocol in terms of experimental techniques you already know. – Meng Cheng Sep 19 '22 at 16:11
  • @MengCheng thank you for your engagement but these matters are an aside to my actual question. – JP McCarthy Sep 19 '22 at 18:29
  • I do think these matters are at the heart of your question. But anyway, that's just my point of view. – Meng Cheng Sep 19 '22 at 19:46

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