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Bell experiments rule out local realism (hidden variables). But it seems to me that it also rules out local non-realism (no hidden variables).

Local non-realism makes 2 claims;

  1. Two distant events can't affect each other faster than light.
  2. Any measurement event where the observable is in a superposition, will have a random (weighted by the probability distribution) outcome. This doesn't reveal a hidden pre-existing value. Rather, it creates it. It creates information. It is 'fundamentally' random.

But Bell experiments show that two entangled particles, far away from each other, measured on the same observable, give results that are 100% correlated.

If both measurement events are non-real, they are both 'fundamentally' random and so it's impossible that they will give correlated results. They will give random results.

Two non-causally-connected, no-hidden-variables, random events can't give the same result every time. It is an explicit contradiction of the definition of random.

Thus, Bell experiments also rule out local non-realism.

So why do people say that local non-realism is valid? How is it not instantly rejected by the experimental existence of Bell correlations?

Local realism and local non-realism both fail.

Juan Perez
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    According to Scholarpedia, Bell's theorem together with the EPR argument rule out any local theory and Bell's theorem alone rules out local theories which explain the measurement outcomes in terms of pre-existing values. Note however that "local" is, IMHO, an overloaded word. One needs to exactly state what is meant by that - sometimes people argue whether or not quantum mechanics is local, but mean different things with that. – Tobias Fünke Oct 10 '22 at 11:42
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    well, "local non-realism" is how one would classify QM... so we know they don't rule it out, because they don't rule out QM (or more precisely, there's degrees of violations of the inequalities which rule out local realism but don't rule out QM). Also, I don't think it makes too much sense to talk about "measurement events being non-real". A measurement event is always "real", there's no possible weirdness about it. It's the correlations between different (probabilities produced by) measurement events corresponding to different measurement choices that can be "real" or not – glS Oct 12 '22 at 09:09
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    @glS I don't see how QM can be called local when it predicts things like non-separability of distant systems; correlations without hidden variables... That's just what my question is trying to criticize. As for measurements, that's when observables with no definite value gain a definite value, so they are definitely 'non-real', as in, fundamentally probabilistic. – Juan Perez Oct 15 '22 at 12:56
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    @JuanPerez because there are no nonlocal causal effects. There is no way to observe the "nonlocal effects" without the aid of a classical (local) channel. Note that "local" here has a very precise definition. Which in words is that someone cannot observe differences in the outcome distribution they have due to what someone else is doing, even though the two parties might share entanglement or other forms of nonclassicality (unless, again, the two also communicate classically) – glS Oct 15 '22 at 13:06
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    Does this answer your question? What is quantum local "unrealism"? – Mauricio Oct 30 '22 at 10:49
  • I thought that Bell tests were not particularly instructive in parallel or orthogonal cases. You can trivilaly imagine hidden variable theories that would result in 100% correlations in those cases, can you not? The point, I thought, is that in the probabilistic cases (60 degrees, etc.) the correlations are too tight to be explained with local HVs. So if we decide to keep locality, we have to accept that both measurement outcomes don't actually become realized until they are brought together through some STL mechanism. I thought Many Worlds was a textbook application of this idea. – Peter Moore Dec 09 '22 at 20:33
  • "Two non-causally-connected, no-hidden-variables, random events can't give the same result every time." They can if the causal connection occurs AFTER the events, when the results are finally compared. Until then, there are some observers for whom one outcome or the other is fixed, but none for whom both outcomes are fixed, hence the absence of a shared objective reality prior to the comparison. It may be rubbish, but you can't say Bell tests disprove this possibility. – Peter Moore Dec 09 '22 at 21:00

3 Answers3

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Bell's tests rule out local hidden variables (assuming statistical independence if you will). The idea is the following, you have two entangled particles and a single detector for each. You want to find the conditional probability $\mathcal{P}(AB|xy)$ that you measure $A$ in the first detector with settings $x$, and measure $B$ in the second detector with settings $y$.

Now you start by (1) assuming quantum mechanics is incomplete, and need some extra hidden variables $\lambda$ to explain the probabilities, thus you have some distribution given by

$$\mathcal{P}(AB|xy)=\sum_\lambda \mathcal P(AB|xy\lambda)\mathcal{P}(\lambda|xy)$$

(2) assuming statistical freedom, we can safely suppose that $\lambda$ is uncorrelated to the measuring devices, as we can put them as far as we want (this assumption when thrown away gives rise to superdeterminism), so we write $\mathcal P (\lambda|xy)=\mathcal P(\lambda)$

(3) assume separability, this is often said to be causality or determinism, is given by the idea that $\mathcal P (AB|xy\lambda)=\mathcal P(A|xy\lambda)\mathcal P (B|xy\lambda)$

(4) assume that there is no action at a distance (no contextuality), the measurements of each detector do not depend on the settings of the oposite detector: $\mathcal P(A|xy\lambda)= \mathcal P (A|x \lambda )$ and $\mathcal P(B|xy\lambda)=\mathcal P (B|y\lambda)$

Finally we have $$\mathcal P(AB|xy)=\sum_\lambda \mathcal P (A|x\lambda)\mathcal P (B|y\lambda) \mathcal P (\lambda)$$

and with this object you can build a correlation function that has an extreme value. This extreme value is violated by quantum mechanics experimentally and can be predicted using Schrödinger's equation.

Now, forgetting about (2), locality is often thought as assumption (4) [disclaimer: the terminology is very messy and sometimes it can mean something else]. Where is realism in all of this? Realism or Counterfactual definiteness (the fact expected values are defined before measurement) as asked by EPR is not very clear here. John Bell preferred to use the term "local causality" instead. Sometimes realism is targeted at (3), it is claimed that (3) is not really an assumption and comes from probability theory, thus QM would purely violate locality! However, some would argue that (1) is indeed what was meant by realism. In the vision of people like Niels Bohr, quantum mechanics was complete, the fact that it uses instead probability amplitudes seems to avoid any need of hidden variables.

Many people still argue that if you assume locality the measurement problem is still an issue and still needs hidden variables to explain the results of Copenhague theory (which remains agnostic and just postulate collapse). However there are decoherence theories that claim that you just need to study decoherence to recover the results of measurement, fixing Copenhague and still you would not need hidden variables. Other theories like many worlds interpretation go further, you assume Schrödinger's equation is all there is, and the different tensor products in your states represent different worlds. In this sense these theories remain local and reproduce all the spookiness. In these theories there only exist the quantum state and that can be only modified locally according to Schrödinger equation.

Mauricio
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Bell experiments rule out local realism (hidden variables). But it seems to me that it also rules out local non-realism (no hidden variables).

Local non-realism makes 2 claims;

Two distant events can't affect each other faster than light. Any measurement event where the observable is in a superposition, will have a random (weighted by the probability distribution) outcome. This doesn't reveal a hidden pre-existing value. Rather, it creates it. It creates information. It is 'fundamentally' random. But Bell experiments show that two entangled particles, far away from each other, measured on the same observable, give results that are 100% correlated.

Realism is the position that measurable quantities are described by hidden variables. Non-realism, the idea that realism is false, doesn't imply any particular position about what happens in Bell experiments.

There is a local theory that explains Bell correlations: it is called quantum theory. The physical quantities that describe the evolution of a quantum system are Hermitian operators that evolve locally:

http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/quant-ph/9906007

http://arxiv.org/abs/1109.6223

The correlations arise as a result of locally inaccessible quantum information being carried in decoherent systems, not as a result of non-local influences.

alanf
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    The operators don't describe individual quantum systems but the quantum mechanical ensemble. What is upsetting about quantum mechanics is the non-separability of the ensemble. Curiously a similar (if not identical) effect can be observed in every linear wave equation: the steady-state solution for the field in the entire volume only depends on the input of the boundary value problem and is therefor infinitely over-determined. This is what really causes the "strangeness" of the optical double slit experiment, which is readily mistaken for quantum mechanics, even though it is entirely classical. – FlatterMann Oct 30 '22 at 09:00
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    “ The physical quantities that describe the evolution of a quantum system are Hermitian operators that evolve locally:” — but does each operator refer ONLY to the state of (eg in a CHSH experiment) the local detector and not the remote detector? Or is it a function of the ensemble as a whole?

    If it is a function of the ensemble as a whole then, even if it evolves locally and information travels locally, it is non-local in the sense that a ‘remote’ part of the system is involved in what happens locally — isn’t it? See Bell’s argument ..

    – Cloudyman Oct 30 '22 at 10:17
  • To put it differently if it were local in Bell’s sense you would be able to come up with a P(AB) of getting a detection at A and B, that you could decompose into P(A|state at A)*P(B|state at B), where each factor depends only on variables locally available at A and B respectively. But it’s mathematically impossible to make such a formulation that violates the CHSH inequality - isn’t it? – Cloudyman Oct 30 '22 at 10:19
  • @FlatterMann The ensemble interpretation is false and leads its advocates to make errors when discussing quantum mechanics. For an example see https://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0605249v4 – alanf Oct 30 '22 at 11:53
  • @Claudiu I linked two papers that discuss the issues raised in your questions. I suggest that you read them and then ask if you have any further questions. – alanf Oct 30 '22 at 12:04
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    @alanf I give you the outcome of exactly one quantum system. It is "up". Please tell me what the wave function looks like. See the problem? The wave function (which for starters is not even the correct physical description of the world and does not predict the actual physical observables) is not a theory of the individual quantum. It's a theory of the ensemble. My "predictions" are exactly the same as those in every quantum mechanics textbook: I use Copenhagen. That you want to call me "advocate" is irrelevant to reality. That is, at most, a poor way of arguing on your side. – FlatterMann Oct 30 '22 at 16:48
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    @alanf And why are you sending me to such a nonsense as the Hyperion chaos thing? I have set through at least a dozen quantum chaos talks, including half a dozen ones that had experimental data in the 1990s. Of course chaos exists in quantum mechanics. The "measurement problem" however doesn't exist outside of the minds of a bunch of theoretical physicists. Physicists are making trillions of quantum measurements in the lab every day. None of them are having any problems. Nature provides more than enough irreversibility thanks to relativity. – FlatterMann Oct 30 '22 at 16:52
  • @FlatterMann I suggest you read Chapter 1 of "The Fabric of Reality" by David Deutsch and reconsider your position. – alanf Oct 30 '22 at 18:48
  • @alanf I happen to be one of those physicists who have made trillions of quantum measurements in the lab. I kind of doubt that reading a poorly written book for laypeople will tell me something about physics that I don't know better from personal experience, already. In any case, if you want to have a discussion, let's do it in the chat. – FlatterMann Oct 30 '22 at 19:24
  • @FlatterMann If you're not willing to read a single chapter in a book, then you're not interested in understanding any alternative to your current worldview, or any ideas about why you might be wrong. I don't see the point in having a discussion with somebody who is so uninterested in the subject he claims to be an expert in. – alanf Oct 30 '22 at 20:38
  • @alanf A single blip of a particle detector tells more about quantum mechanics than a library full of books for laypeople. I think everybody should have built one of those once in a lifetime. There are cheap Geiger-Mueller counter kits on Amazon. That's a far better investment than a book full of poor ideas that have absolutely nothing to do with reality. – FlatterMann Oct 31 '22 at 02:07
  • "there is a local theory that explains Bell correlations: it is called quantum theory." This strikes me as a presumptuous and likely misleading statement IMHO. If you mean the Copenhagen Interpretation, it's agnostic to these questions. The only way to preserve locality and realism is superdeterminism (i.e. the oft-omitted third Bell assumption - statistical independence - is violated). Anything that claims to preserve locality and realism is in fact superdeterminism, usually calling itself something different because of the negative connotation, but that's what it is. – Peter Moore Dec 09 '22 at 20:46
  • The Copenhagen interpretation denies that there is any such thing as an account of how reality works. As such, it implies nothing and predicts nothing except by ad hockery. To see what quantum theory implies read https://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0104033. Superdeterminism contradicts quantum theory and so is a replacement and not an interpretation. The fact that its advocates claim to solve the alleged problem of non-locality without referring to the existing solution that has been in the literature for more than 20 years leads me to doubt their honesty, seriousness and competence. – alanf Dec 10 '22 at 11:30
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Claim 1 is that the theory is local. Claim 2 is that there is wavefunction collapse onto a randomly-selected eigenstate at the time of measurement. The long-distance correlations in outcomes seen in Bell experiments in the context of Claim 2 do indeed show that wavefunction collapse must be non-local. But Bell experiments are only excluding the possibility of local theories of wavefunction collapse, not Realism or non-Realism.

The Everett Interpretation (also known as the Many Worlds Interpretation) has no wavefunction collapse, and is both local and Realist. There are no faster than light influences. The wavefunction represents the true, objective state of the universe. It is also deterministic - there is no randomness. When an observation is made, the observer enters a superposition of observer states each seeing one outcome. This happens locally. In a Bell experiment, two particles with correlated wavefunctions are separated. Each observer observing a particle becomes correlated with it, and hence with the other particle, and hence with the other observer. When the observers get back together to compare notes, each superposed sub-state only interacts with superposed sub-states of the other observer making compatible observations. You get perfect correlation without faster-than-light influences, because there is no collapse and loss of information at the time of observation. The information is retained, but is not directly accessible to the observer sub-states who cannot see one another. They can only deduce their existence because interference between them cancels out certain combinations of outcomes.

An electron passing through one slit cannot 'see itself' passing through the other slit. (They are not, for example, electrostatically repelled from one another.) An electron (if it was smart enough!) could only deduce that it was part of a wavefunction when it observed that it never hits the screen at the nulls of the interference pattern.

Local realism can survive Bell's test. What gets contradicted is local wavefunction collapse.

On a philosophical note, some people argue that because the non-locality of wavefunction collapse has no observable consequences (it can't do, because there is a local alternative interpretation that predicts the same observations), and in particular, can't be used to send signals faster than light, that this collapse isn't really in violation of locality, but some more subtle property. Here, we have to point out the difference between ontology (our theory about what is) and epistemology (our theory about what we can observe/deduce). Wavefunction collapse is an ontological theory. We make an observation, and it collapses the entire wavefunction onto a single randomly-selected eigenstate instantaneously, everywhere. Observable consequences or not, this is the picture in our head.

That ontological picture has such strange consequences when combined with relativity that many reject the question entirely, and say there is no objective ontological 'reality' out there for us to observe. There is only epistemological observation. Quantum mechanics gives a method for calculating the outcome of experiments, but it should not be taken as saying anything about what is really happening behind the scenes. We observe shadows on the wall of Plato's cave, but nothing is outside the cave casting them. There are only the shadows. This is non-Realism.

As Einstein put the question: "Do you really believe that the moon isn’t there when nobody looks?"

That physics should take this proposal seriously - when there is a local, deterministic, realist alternative interpretation readily available - I think is fascinating in terms of the psychology and sociology of the scientific community. Einstein was wrong about hidden variables, but I think he was right that there was a problem.

Whether you choose to believe in non-local wavefunction collapse, local superpositions of observers, or that there is no reality to observe is your choice. They all make the same predictions about observations, so they are experimentally indistinguishable. None of them can ever be shown to be wrong. But the existence of the Everett interpretation as a local, realist ontology means that Bell experiments cannot exclude either locality or realism. They can only do so in combination with particular metaphysical assumptions.

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    this seems to be more about personal theories than about the mainstream way these things are interpreted by the community – glS Oct 12 '22 at 09:20
  • There is no wave function collapse in Copenhagen, either. Most people simply don't understand why Copenhagen is structured the way it is with the SE being the description of the reversible dynamics of the quantum system and the Born rule describing the irreversibility of the preparation and measurement process. This has absolutely nothing to do with philosophy. It is a side effect of how universities teach quantum mechanics to undergrads: as a completely physics free mathematical theory. The theory only connects to reality in atomic, nuclear and high energy physics courses. – FlatterMann Oct 30 '22 at 09:08