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So assuming we know all the laws of physics in differential equation form, and I have an estimate for the current large scale state of the universe (whatever standard assumptions/data cosmologists use about the current large scale state of the universe in order to extrapolate the state of the universe on the large scale far into the future or far into the past... whatever standard assumptions are used to estimate that there was a big bang in the past)

It seems to me that I could plug these into my differential equations and find out the state of the universe infinitely far back or infinitely in the future.

So why couldn't I plug in a time 100 billion years before today (before the big bang) and find out the state of the universe far before the big bang?

Is there something in the theory/mathematics that forces the equations to begin at a certain time t(big bang)... and not allow us to extrapolate prior to that?

Ameet Sharma
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    Who said you can't? It's not been proven whether you can or cannot. – DKNguyen Feb 09 '23 at 02:05
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    "and I know the current state of the universe completely", There are some problems with that. Where will you store information? etc. etc. – Jodrell Feb 09 '23 at 12:20
  • You could look at it as that if some law describes its motion such as $x(t)$. It’s a function say in one dimension $f(t)$. If backwards time is $f(-t)$ we want $f$ such that we have an issue. One would be $f(t)= t^{\frac{1}{2}}$. But this is just a case where the simple rules break down there is always a question of its physical interpretation and here it is meaningless. However perhaps you can derive a case which has a clear meaning and you can’t reverse time. – marshal craft Feb 09 '23 at 13:13
  • Also maybe from a philosophical, thought experiment type perspective, if the universe through time removes some conservative form of information or complexity then presumably there is no way to get it back. Or contrarily if it can’t really be removed then so on… – marshal craft Feb 09 '23 at 13:23
  • "So assuming we know all the laws of physics in differential equation form, and I know the current state of the universe completely..." is a bad way to start a question. Approximation, and thus imprecise knowledge of given state and physical laws, is at the very heart of scientific methodology. And it will always put a limit on how far you can extrapolate predictions. – kricheli Feb 09 '23 at 14:02
  • @Jodrell In Maxwell's Daemon's computer. – Barmar Feb 09 '23 at 15:43
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    @RogerVadim please explain in what way you think that link answers OP’s question, or how it is even tangentially related to OP’s question (despite being an interesting linked question). Asymmetry of time has zero bearing here (note I have no personal animus with the question being closed after me writing my answer; OP saw my answer, seemed to find it helpful, and that’s good enough for me). But I do think it is pretty silly to close a question as opinion-based, when clearly it is not, and there is an understandable conceptual misunderstanding about ODEs (not at all opinion-based). – peek-a-boo Feb 09 '23 at 17:19
  • @peek-a-boo I suggested closing it as a duplicate (But it takes three people to close a question.) The equations-of-motion are reversible in time. The irreversibly arises not in the equations, but due to the lack of information about the initial state, and due to finite precision of solving the equation. It is hard even for thermodynamic systems with $N_A\sim 10^{24}$, and it is questionable whether it could be done at all for the universe - since whatever means of storing data and making computation would be also a part of this universe – Roger V. Feb 10 '23 at 09:31
  • [Contd.] Regarding a part of your program - extrapolating equations to before the Big Bang - there is no certainty that the laws of physics were the same before the big bang or even in its first instants. – Roger V. Feb 10 '23 at 09:47
  • I have removed the part about knowing the current state of the universe. It was only meant as a simplifying assumption for a thought experiment. Whether or not we can actually calculate the current state of the universe had nothing to do with my intention with the question. peek-a-book had it exactly right. I had a misunderstanding regarding ODEs... I had a bad intuition of the form of differential equations of the laws of physics (that you can also extrapolate the equations further into the future or past arbitrarily) which is why I was puzzled by a "starting point" like the big bang. – Ameet Sharma Feb 10 '23 at 09:49
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    @AmeetSharma I understand that breakdown due to the invalidity of equations is easier to grasp. But appreciating the fact that irreversibility arises from limits on the information and precision seems to me a lot more important - so I really think that the thread that I linked is the duplicate. Also, the fact that the computation is part of the universe matters - assumption that we can perform computation without affecting the universe is like assuming that we can measure things infinitely fast or with infinite precision (I am hinting at relativity and QM.) – Roger V. Feb 10 '23 at 11:22

4 Answers4

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Let's not even talk about big bangs yet. Consider a simple non-linear ODE $\frac{dx}{dt}=-x^2$ with the condition $x(1)=1$. There is a unique maximal solution defined on a connected interval, which in this case is easily seen to be $x(t)=\frac{1}{t}$ for $t\in (0,\infty)$. Ouch. Even for such a simple looking ODE, a simple non-linearity already implies that our solution blows up in a finite amount of time, and we can't continue 'backwards' beyond $t=0$. You as an observer living in the 'future', i.e living in $(0,\infty)$ can no longer ask "what happened at $t=-1$?" The answer is that you can't say anything. Note that you can also cook up examples of ODEs for which solutions only exist for a finite interval of time $(t_1,t_2)$, and blowup as $t\to t_2^-$ or as $t\to t_1^+$.

The Einstein equations (which are PDEs, not merely ODEs) are a much bigger nonlinear mess. It is actually a general feature of nonlinear equations that solutions usually blow up in a finite amount of time. Of course, certain nonlinear equations have global-in-time existence of solutions, but a-priori, there's no reason you should expect them to have that nice property. For instance, in the FRW solution of Einstein's equations, the scale factor $a(t)$ vanishes as $t\to t_0$ (if you plug in some simple matter models you can even see this analytically), and doing a bunch more calculations, you can show this implies somme of the curvature components blow up. What this says is the Lorentzian metric cannot be extended in a $C^2$ sense. We can try to refine our notion of solution and singularity, but that would require a deep dive into the harshness of Sobolev spaces etc, and I don't want to open that can of worms here or now.

Anyway, my simple point is that it is very common to have ODEs which only have solutions that exist for a finite amount of time, so your central claim of

It seems to me that I could plug these into my differential equations and find out the state of the universe infinitely far back or infinitely in the future.

is just not true.


Edit:

@jensenpaull good point, and I was debating whether or not I should have elaborated on it originally, but since you asked, I’ll do so now. Are there functions that satisfy the ODE $\frac{dx}{dt}=-x^2$ which are defined on a larger domain? Absolutely! The general solution is $x(t)=\frac{1}{t}+C(t)$, where $C(t)$ is constant on $(0,\infty)$, and a perhaps different constant on $(-\infty,0)$. So, we we have completely lost uniqueness. But, why is this physically (and even mathematically in some regards) such a big deal?

In Physics, we do experiments, and that means we have only access to things ‘here and now’ (let’s gloss over technical (but fundamental) issues and say we have the ability to gather perfect experimental data). One of the goals of Physics is to use this information, and predict what happens in the future/past. But if we lose uniqueness, then it means our perfect initial conditions are still insufficient to nail down what exactly happened/will happen, which is a sign that we don’t know everything. We are talking about dynamics here, so our perfect knowledge ‘initially’ should be all that we require to talk about existence and uniqueness of solutions (Otherwise, our theory is not well-posed). So, anything which is not uniquely predicted by our initial conditions cannot in any sense be considered physically relevant. Btw, such ‘well-posedness’ (in a certain class) questions are taken for granted in Physics, and occupy Mathematicians (heck the Navier-Stokes Millenium problem is roughly speaking a question of well-posedness in a smooth setting). Dynamics is everywhere:

  • Newton’s laws are 2nd order ODEs and require require two initial conditions (position, velocity). From there, we turn on our ODE solver, and see what the result is.
  • Maxwell’s electrodynamics: although in elementary E&M we simply solve various equations using symmetry, the fundamental idea is these are (linear, coupled) evolution equations for a pair of vector fields, which means we prescribe certain initial conditions (and boundary conditions) and then solve.
  • GR: initially, there was lots of confusion regarding what exactly a solution is. It wasn’t until the work of Choquet Bruhat (and Geroch) that we finally understood the dynamical formulation of Einstein’s equations, and that we had a good well-posedness statement and a firm understanding of how the initial conditions (a 3-manifold, a Riemannian metric, and a symmetric $(0,2)$-tensor field which is the to-be second-fundamental form of the embedding) give rise to a unique maximal solution (which is globally hyperbolic).

So, my first reason for why we don’t continue past $t=0$ (though of course, the reasoning is not really specific to that ODE alone) has been that dynamics should be uniquely predicted by initial conditions. Hence, it makes no physical sense to go beyond $t=0$. The second reason is that in physics, nothing is ‘truly infinite’, and if it is, then our interpretation is that we don’t yet have a complete understanding of what’s going on. So, rather than trying to fix our solution, we should fix our equations (e.g maybe the ODE isn’t very physical). But before we throw out our equations, we may wonder: have we been too restrictive in our notion of solution? For instance, maybe it is too much to require solutions to be $C^1$. Could we for instance require only weaker regularity of $L^2=H^0$ or $H^1$? Well, $H^1$-regularity is indeed more natural for many Physical purposes (because $H^1$-regularity means ‘energy stays finite’). However, for this solution, we can see that $\frac{1}{2}\int_0^{\infty}|x(t)|^2+|\dot{x}(t)|^2\,dt=\infty$. In fact, this is so bad that for any $\epsilon>0$, $\int_0^{\epsilon}[\dots]\,dt=\infty$, so the origin is a truly singular point that even energy blows up. So, there’s no physical sense in continuing past that point.

peek-a-boo
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  • Is this non-linearity associated with just general relativity, or other fundamental forces as well? – Ameet Sharma Feb 09 '23 at 03:02
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    @AmeetSharma nonlinearities are everywhere in physics, GR is not the odd ball out in that regard. But usually non-linear equations are hard to solve, so we often linearize them (and even that can be extremely hard to solve/analyze properties of). (Maxwell's equations for electrodynamics are linear though). – peek-a-boo Feb 09 '23 at 04:42
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    Just because we "live" in the interval $(0,\infty)$, what makes this automatically mean that we cannot assign values of t for the other interval $(-\infty,0)$? in a strictly mathematical sense, the function is not defined at t=0, but can still be defined for less than t. ofcourse "rewinding time" past the zero t value doesnt make sense, but purely defining the function for less than t should still make sense, no? – jensen paull Feb 09 '23 at 12:04
  • Why "let's not even talk about big bangs yet"? Isn't the big bang essentially a singularity exactly like the example that you have described? – Federico Poloni Feb 09 '23 at 13:05
  • @FedericoPoloni, this is my point... does the big bang arise out of some mathematical singularity like with the equation given? Or is it some other kind of theory not involving mathematical singularities? – Ameet Sharma Feb 09 '23 at 14:08
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    @FedericoPoloni sure, but I didn’t feel like writing down the equations describing FRW and explaining what they represent, nor did I feel like mentioning the caveat that the FRW isn’t ‘exactly’ (whatever exactly means given all the philosphical answers generated here) our universe, and that the equations are much more involved. But that’s also why I used the word “yet” in my sentence :) I just wanted to give OP a very simple, concrete hands-on example which immediately dispels their belief that ODEs can always be solved for all time (without getting distracted by the complexities of GR). – peek-a-boo Feb 09 '23 at 16:10
  • It would be nice if the example was more physical and more convincingly described a real world system that couldn't be described in a way that resolves the singularity. Singularities tend to pop up in our approximative descriptions of physics whenever we fail to resolve some underlying issue. Yet they have a way of never appearing in observables (what would it even mean?) These singularities can be removed by resolving a bit of unknown physics. Whether this is by UV completing a QFT, by introducing a lattice or something else. I believe evidence suggest that the universe is turing complete. – Marten Feb 09 '23 at 16:22
  • @Kvothe sure it would be nice, but I think simple and “more physical” don’t go hand-in-hand if you want more than a heuristic story of results. If I were to start talking about say turbulences of water waves, or the “UV catastrophe” or even start writing out Einstein’s equations, and specialize them to FRW etc then OP would get lost in the extraneous details before seeing the key point that their premise is wrong even for extremely simple examples. Hence, I made a choice to start with such an ODE (such quadratic ODEs could in some vague way be thought of as modelling air drag though so…) – peek-a-boo Feb 09 '23 at 16:26
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    @AmeetSharma yes, there is an equation which relates the scale factor $a(t)$ (see my second paragraph about). I just haven’t written it down because it’s not the simplest example. – peek-a-boo Feb 09 '23 at 16:27
  • @peek-a-boo, thanks. that pretty much clarifies what I was looking for. – Ameet Sharma Feb 09 '23 at 16:53
  • @jensenpaull good point, I have edited my answer to describe some reasons for why it is unphysical, and also not mathematically sound. We often don’t really care about ‘general solutions’ in ODE/PDEs (there are way too many: for the ODE I gave, the solution space is $2$-dimensional, but even for simple PDEs like $\nabla^2\phi=0$ in $\Bbb{R}^2$, the ‘general solutions’ form an infinite-dimensional vector space… it is only if we impose the boundary condition of vanishing at infinity that we get the unique solution $\phi=0$ ). We care about existence/uniqueness of solutions (in a certain class). – peek-a-boo Feb 09 '23 at 17:02
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Your accepted answer explains why we cannot do it today - mostly because we simply are not capable to solve the equations we came up with, and even for incredibly simple examples like ${dx}/{dt}=-x^2$ the resulting formulas are already nixing any chance of success. In a sense this is not what you are asking: obviously as another of your assumptions you are proposing is that we know the complete state of the universe at a time t, we are already in fantasy land (or let's say, the question would maybe be better placed in Philosopy.SE).

So this answer considers that your assumptions are, in fact true:

  • We have (at some point in the future) all the theories, and due to our diligence or good luck they happen to be both true and complete. We know how the universe works, period. Nothing in our (future) formulas is wrong, we have the complete algorithm.
  • We somehow manage to record the complete state of the universe at a point $t$ in time.
  • And we find a mathematical way to work with the kinds of singularities, as mentioned elsewhere, or the brand new, complete formulas are, in some unfathomable way, immune or free from them. Heck, maybe we find a way to simulate the universe one Planck time into the future or past, and somehow this not-so-general set of algorithms does not suffer the "blowing up" problem.

The obvious answer of why this is not possible, and never will be, is that to record the complete state of the universe, we need to store it somewhere, or hold it in some form of memory. This storage will again be part of our physical universe. So where do we store the fact that we have stored the state of the universe? Do we need to add some space to our storage system for that? Where do we store the information that we did that? And so on and so forth. No system can ever store the complete state about itself in itself, out of principle.

But OK. Let's waive this issue, and assume we can store the info in some interdimensional pocket or in a separate universe.

Then let's also assume that the internal workings of the universe are, indeed, open to calculations - i.e., assume there are no completely random, nondetermined events anywhere (right down to the Planck scale). Then what would we use to calculate the state of the universe at a future time (even if it's just a Planck time "tick" in the future)? You would need a computing device which not only is able to hold the instantaneous state of the universe in memory, but also be able to do all the calculations - some of them may be able to be abstracted (i.e. the flight path of galaxies in this very short term); but we still will have to simulate every single particle right down to the quantum level because we know that quantum effects can bubble up into the visible scale. So we cannot just abstract everything away - we need a kind of computing device which is... like... an universe. So, you would need a second universe which "runs" the current universe.

Then the question is how fast this computation can run, and you can of course see where this is going - this computing device will by force run slower than the actual universe, so if you might be able to kind of "walk" the state forward, you will never ever be able to use it in any sense useful, i.e. to do proper predictions or backward calculations.

I'll handwave any mathematical resistance from the likes of Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem or other like-minded problems (which are not a sign of our current knowledge being incomplete or maybe wrong, but a real, final, show-stopper). Or chaos theory, which shows that even utterly trivial systems can very quickly show emergent chaotic behaviour that is more or less intractable in closed form.

Hey, and if we were able to overcome all these problems, a new problem occurs once we are able to roll the universe forward or backward: any information we get from this will feedback into our current time. So we get endless recursion - this feedback will need to go into the simulation, which will influence the simulation, which will be an endless, deep cycle we can by definition never get out of. The calculation would grind to a halt immediately, no matter how fast our computer is.

To sum it up: even with optimum conditions including a good amount of SciFi, it will always be practically impossible to run the universe in a simulation, which is what it means if you are talking about running it backward or forward.

And obviously, many of the assumptions I used (the existence of a closed-form set of algorithms for the universe's mechanics; the advance of maths to be able to actually handle the formulas; the non-existence of true randomness; the possibility to even "scan" the current state; the existence of parallel universes for storage and so on; the discreteness of reality, i.e. whether reality runs in "ticks" or not) are either unlikely or just so far out that it's hard to find words for it. Any of it not being true would make it not only practically, but theoretically completely impossible.

AnoE
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  • Never mind exact calculations... suppose we're just doing rough estimates. Can we take a rough estimate of the current state of the universe, and run the equations backwards to show there was likely a state something like the "big bang". My question is... whatever this mathematical model is... can we extrapolate back to times before the big bang... or does the mathematical equation undefined prior to the big bang, similar to the example the previous answer gave? My main question is... is there something in the mathematics that forces us to stop at the big bang and not go further back? – Ameet Sharma Feb 09 '23 at 12:06
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    Hi @AmeetSharma, sure there is a reason: you cannot just say you take a "rough estimate". We know of physical processes on the quantum scale which have real, practical implications in the real world - in fact, the real world is the quantum stuff and nothing else. You cannot just handwave Quantum scales away through averaging everything - then you end up with Newton-era physics, which is utterly incapable of even formulating the basics of what's happening when you get near the big bang (from our side), nevermind want to go to $t<0$. – AnoE Feb 09 '23 at 12:13
  • @AnonE, thanks. So what about the singularities of black holes? I assume there are similar difficulties with the mathematics at quantum levels... or is the problem more manageable? – Ameet Sharma Feb 09 '23 at 12:29
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    A few counterpoints: The storage problem could be easily solved using compression. The recursion problem you mentioned, in a truly deterministic world would not be a problem since it would be "predetermined" that someone would run that simulation and that would be predicted. Another reason it wouldn't be a problem is because we are interested in running the simulaton backwards, so the simulation itself doesn't affect the result. – AlexDev Feb 09 '23 at 13:22
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    This answer presents many statements as true and obvious which are not at all obvious (nor true probably). It is not at all clear that the whole universe cannot be simulated in a small region within it. (See also statements such as "this computing device will by force run slower than the actual universe" is completely unsubstantiated.) The wrong answer might well seem "obvious" to someone unfamiliar with dealing with infinities. (That is not to say that some mild relevant evidence in favor of such statements does not exist, e.g. the Bekenstein bound.) – Marten Feb 09 '23 at 16:12
  • I'm not quite sure what you're expecting, @AmeetSharma. If there were meaningful answers to this questions, the science world would be exploding and a Nobel Price would probably be on order. Right now, nobody has a clue how to work with/against singularities of any kind, we are not even close to knowing how to combine our large-scale/small-scale theories yet (which must be possible since the universe seems to be existing...), nevermind being able to run simulations back to the beginning of everything! – AnoE Feb 12 '23 at 19:16
  • @kvothe, funny, I thought I'd successfully erred on the other side of the speculation (i.e., assuming many things that are too good to be true ;) ). The meat of the answer is in the last paragraph. – AnoE Feb 12 '23 at 19:19
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I'll take a bit of a philosophical angle here, and just discuss part of your opening:

So assuming we know [...], and I know the current state of the universe completely.

That is a fundamentally impossible assumption. Not for practical reasons, not because of quantum mechanics, but because you are part of the universe, and you "knowing" something must be an attribute of your state. What you are requiring is that a small part of the universe, you, somehow encodes the state of the whole universe; moreover this must happen not by accident, not by divine intervention from outside the universe, but presumably on purpose by you arranging to acquire knowledge about the whole universe, all the time remaining inside the universe. I don't think there is any stretch of imagination by which this could be organised.

In principle it is possible for some part of a system to reflect in detail the whole system, as happens in fractals, but that happens because the system was from the outset designed to have that property. Actually what you want is that the encoding is at some higher level of abstraction (your knowledge about the universe should not just be a scaled copy of the universe), somewhat like a Gödel sentence is representing something about itself (namely the existence of a proof for itself). That example shows that again it is not something that fundamentally cannot exist at all, but the property of the Gödel sentence is something that happens only because it was designed that way from outside the system; within the system there is nothing to indicate that the Gödel sentence is actually talking about itself.

Also from an information-theoretic perspective, it is hard to see how one could make part of a system encode the whole system, or more specifically evolve from a state in which it does not to one in which it does.

By the way, this also addresses the question of how to reconcile a deterministic universe (or one with stochastic elements; it makes no fundamental difference) with the subjective notion of free will. Even if we are aware that our bodies, and therefore our thoughts and actions, are ultimately governed by the laws of nature and our initial state, over which we have no control at all, there is no way in which subjectively that determinism influences the options when we are deciding what to do, because it is impossible to have that higher level information about our state encoded inside our own brain. A chess computer may be programmed to ultimately decide according to a fixed algorithm to choose what it deems to be the best move (it cannot do anything else), that fact is in no way constraining the set of options that it must explore and weigh in order to find that move.

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So assuming we know all the laws of physics in differential equation form, and I know the current state of the universe completely...

Pheew... what an optimistic thought! Without going into the general law of physics with the problem of consistency between relativity theory and quantum mechanics, I shall just look at something I know better: meteorological forecast. Here most of the laws are well known: you have a rather simple fluid mechanic question, a bit of water thermodynamics, and solar radiations for an even smaller part. The parameters to handle are rather simple: temperature, pression, moisture, and wind speed. But as Navier-Stokes equations are unstable, a minimal error on the initial conditions leads to a plain wrong solution after no more than 15 days!

Said differently, it is currently impossible to fully describe the troposphere (first 15km of the atmosphere), and you assume that you know the current state of the universe!

My answer is simply that if you can know the current state of the universe completely you are with no doubt an almighty god, so you should be able to know what has happened since the big bang and what will happen till the end of the universe...

Not speaking of the fact that what we know of physical laws already contains singularities where the currently known laws no longer apply: the black holes and the big bang itself...

On a logical and philosophical point of view, your question starts with an impossible assumption. From that on, the logic rules say that anything is possible: false implies anything is always true...

  • It was just a simplifying assumption for a thought experiment. Didn't realize people would take it so seriously. My only point was to say... let's say the current conditions are so and so currently in the universe... don't physicists make simplifying assumptions like this all the time... I mean how do they extrapolate what happens in the past or what happens in the future if they can't say anything about the state of the universe now? – Ameet Sharma Feb 09 '23 at 15:43
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    @AmeetSharma I've noticed that thought experiments are pretty much taboo on this site. I suspect it largely comes from difficulty on the reader's part to understand the question. Just about everyone on this site has been asked to ignore friction or air resistance at some point. Even this answer failed to understand you're asking about the machine, not the input data to it. – David S Feb 09 '23 at 16:17
  • @DavidS, "you're asking about the machine, not the input data to it." exactly! :) I'm sure it's my fault for not writing the question well. Still I think peek-a-boo got the gist of my question. – Ameet Sharma Feb 09 '23 at 16:28