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Usually, when physicists talk about singularities in Einstein's theory of relativity, they say that these cannot exist and that they are only mathematical artifacts that indicate that is likey that another, more fundamental quantum gravity theory (like loop quantum gravity or string theory) will be able to explain what happens inside instead (so inside a "singularity" we would still have predictability and laws of physics in some form)

However, is there any possibility (even if a remote one) that would allow actual singularities to exist?

For example if the universe was really infinite with an infinite amount of mass in total, wouldn't the Big Bang have had an actual singularity, since infinite mass would actually imply an infinite density at the beginning of the universe?

If not, can you think of any other situation?...

Qmechanic
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vengaq
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    The reason for the infinite density is not infinite mass, but zero spatial volume. Singularities don't make sense physically because it doesn't make sense to squeeze a certain amount of matter into a space that doesn't even have any space to begin with. In our universe, any measurement must give a finite result. Why this is the case very fundamentally, I don't know, but I suppose our current universe with all its laws wouldn't exist if that were the case. – Avantgarde Apr 15 '23 at 01:08
  • Nobody has ever observed a naked singularity. It's not even clear that such a concept makes any sense at all because physics is all about scale dependent phenomena and a singularity would basically go through an infinite number of scales in a very small volume. All of our observations of nature point to something completely different, instead: physics tends to be self-limiting because only stable phenomena are observable. Unstable ones either decay or mask themselves. The challenge is not to find a singularity but a fully self-consistent theory that gets rid of such predictions. – FlatterMann Apr 15 '23 at 01:15
  • IIRC, Penrose and Hawking did a lot of work to show that black holes have no way to prevent the creation of the (shielded) singularity. Would you consider that as evidence? – naturallyInconsistent Apr 15 '23 at 01:27
  • @naturallyInconsistent Relativists have simply extrapolated GR towards infinity. That has never worked with any physical theory. Why in the world would it suddenly work in GR? Overextrapolation is a tool to unmask the flaws of theories, it's not a physical prediction methodology. – FlatterMann Apr 15 '23 at 01:37
  • @FlatterMann I think it is far weirder to not entertain what theories naturally hint things would go. Whether it is actually physical or not, let experiments suggest what they do. Why should prejudices stop people from finding out? Let's not repeat the ugly history of sweeping things under the rug only for younglings to find out that theories have consequences (I'm referring to when Bell's theorems revived interest in quantum interpretations) – naturallyInconsistent Apr 15 '23 at 01:47
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    @naturallyInconsistent Newton tells you that gravity is instantaneous and that Mercury is a very naughty boy who doesn't behave as Newton says. Maxwell tells you that you can't exist because stable matter is impossible. Schroedinger tells you that the periodic table is completely wrong and needs to be rewritten... and who needs antimatter, anyway? GR tells us that gravity forms singularities, to which I simply raise my cup and take a drink because somebody made the same old error of mistaking theory for reality, again. – FlatterMann Apr 15 '23 at 02:22
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    @Flattermann Glib responses does not a scientific argument make. Those examples are when experiments made the judgement call. That is very different from the case whereby Penrose and Hawking put a lot of effort into showing that no known physical phenomenon seems to be able to prevent the formation of the singularity. We do not put absolute confidence into that theory, but it is as least not dismissed out of hand either direction. – naturallyInconsistent Apr 15 '23 at 02:27
  • @naturallyInconsistent The scientific argument against singularities is simply that they have never been observed. That closes that chapter completely - until somebody observes one. Science is the rational explanation of natural observations. It is not the overextrapolation of theories that are very poorly confirmed. We don't even know how gravity behaves below the 0.1mm scale. Not even Newtonian gravity, let along strong gravity. If you want to work on that front... I believe UWash has a really good post-Newtonian gravity experimental program. – FlatterMann Apr 15 '23 at 02:33
  • I wouldn't feel comfortable dismissing the question as meaningless, but I think questions about the reality or unreality of a concentration of mass that doesn't exist in our frame... in a region of space that doesn't exist in our frame... would need a nonstandard and hopefully very specific definition of the word real. – g s Apr 15 '23 at 03:13
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    Is there any remote possibility that a singularity may be real? Opinion-based questions are off-topic. Please edit your post to ask a question that has an objective answer. – Ghoster Apr 15 '23 at 04:34
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    Possible duplicates: Do Singularities really exist? and links therein. – Qmechanic Apr 15 '23 at 05:49

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General relativity makes no prediction for what happens at singularities, so it doesn't really even make sense to ask whether they're real. There is no theoretical prediction that you can compare with data to determine whether something is a singularity or not.

Saying that GR singularities must be explained by quantum gravity is really just saying that a nonpredictive theory needs to be supplanted by a predictive one.

benrg
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  • As per my comment on A.V.S.' answer (which is dependent on the Weyl Curvature Hypothesis being correct), I have to split my preference between the two. – Edouard Apr 17 '23 at 19:30
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… is there any possibility (even if a remote one) …

Since this is asking to quantify the likelihood of candidate theories “to be real”, any such estimate would be subjective, and so I will not comment on the remoteness.

But here is an example of a candidate theory that contains an “actual singularity” that is not expected to be supplanted by something nonsingular from a more detailed theory: Conformal Cyclic Cosmology (CCC) of R. Penrose. In it the actual Big Bang singularity is identified (conformally) with an infinite time/infinite expansion of the previous cosmological cycle.

For more details on CCC see popular science book by Penrose.

A.V.S.
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    The thermal equilibrium of one iteration of a single universe does become the big bang of its next in Penrose's model, so this answer does seem to be the one for "single universe" fans (who are probably getting scarce), although, unlike at least one of the multiverse models, it hasn't seemed to offer any means of observational or experimental verification that I (a layperson) have been able to identify. – Edouard Apr 17 '23 at 19:25
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I would like to state one point here. It isn't that singularities are artefacts that pop up due to some setting of the theory, so it is rather likely that singularities are real in the sense they cannot be resolved from quantum gravity (though there are some counter-arguments). For that matter, if one has a holographic quantum gravity setting, one could invoke the so-called No Transmission principle from Engelhardt and Horowitz [1], which states that given two independent CFTs, there shouldn't be a way to transmit information between the bulk duals as well, owing to holography. In fact, one could state that if two CFTs are independent, the singularity shouldn't be resolved in a way to allow information to pass between the independent bulk duals as well. In the sense of strong censorship, this means that the inner Cauchy horizon should be unstable; in the sense of singularities, this would just be the statement that the curvature blow-ups (or in general the geometry around such blow-ups) also signify independence of spacetimes. For that matter, I emphasized this particularly in a rather awkwardly written essay for GRF [2].

As of singularity theorems, these have the exact conditions required for a given spacetime to contain incomplete geodesics -- note the emphasis: incomplete geodesics do not necessarily signify curvature singularities, but in general such conditions are satisfied by those spacetimes that also have a curvature blow-up. For instance, more recently, Bousso and Mogghadam showed that the notion of singularities could also be motivated from throwing in too much entropy in a region than is allowed by the Bousso bound $S\leq \frac{A[\sigma ]}{4G\hbar }$, which is a nice result [3]. This, in my opinion, is a pretty decent way of motivating the idea of "real" singularities, since one would expect such large information clumping is usually observed as a result of a scaling difference between entropy and the area of a marginally trapped surface (condition on the expansion because of the definition of the Bousso bound); if you consider an expanding universe, you would find a marginally anti-trapped surface for which the scaling is off by a factor of $r$ such that the entropy contained in the region is far more than allowed by the bound, and from their result you would find a geodesic incompleteness. If one tried to take semiclassical effects into account, you would be left out with the generalized entropy, something Wall, Bousso and others including me had motivated as well (see for instance [4]), for which the predictions of singularities remains the same. One would therefore find it easier to say that singularities occurring is indeed a physical thing, and I have had it in the back of my mind to see if there are other ways in which physical notions in the semiclassical limit can be used to get to the description of singularities. Experimental tests, on the other hand, are a much more problematic thing, because naked singularities are prohibited from the weak censorship conjecture (a weak indeed conjecture at that, which I will not comment on here; but for instance, a well-known violation is that of the Gregory-Laflamme instability), and so one can instead observe strong lensing or so, a field I am not familiar with myself.

Also, as of the initial comment on the view of general relativists on singularities being merely mathematical artefacts, I think I would strongly disagree with it. At least because Hawking and Penrose's works have sufficient physical characteristics to indicate singularities (again, g-incompleteness, not strictly singularities characterized by the blow-up of curvature invariants) -- I think what you meant to say is that general relativists would like to see a more physical setting for singularities. Which also is a rather vague thing, but as I said, light-sheets and the Bousso bound have motivated singularities, and so it is likely there are other ways to arrive at singularities using physically generic settings. Which I would like to clarify; in a talk I said that global hyperbolicity is an assumption which should be discarded if possible, which may make the Bousso-Moghaddam or Wall's scheme seem non-generic. I said this in the sense that Hawking and Penrose's work removes global hyperbolicity from the Penrose theorem, which is in my opinion one of the merits of the theorem, and why it is so remarkably beautiful. In my remark, I meant to say that if there exists a kind of Hawking-Penrose theorem including semiclassical effects, it would be much more nicer, with the same effect as that of the Hawking-Penrose theorem in the semiclassical limit, although I for one don't think this could be found trivially. If there's any issues with this, do point it out.


[1] Holographic Consequences of a No Transmission Principle, Engelhardt and Horowitz, Phys. Rev. D 93, 026005 (2016).

[2] Holographic Quantum Gravity and Horizon Instability, Kalvakota, arXiv:2304.01292 [hep-th] (2023).

[3] Singularities From Entropy, Bousso and Moghaddam, Phys. Rev. Lett. 128, 231301 (2022).

[4] The Generalized Second Law implies a Quantum Singularity Theorem, Wall, Class. Quantum Grav. 30, 165003 (2013).

VaibhavK
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  • I never got the insistence on global hyperbolicity, for one thing, i don't see how it can ever be a consistent assumption with topology change. – Zo the Relativist May 01 '23 at 15:10
  • @JerrySchirmer I did not understand you. If you mean the requirement of global hyperbolicity at all, I think that is one of the points of Hawking-Penrose that make it much more fundamental than Penrose's result. If you mean g.h. in the Wall or Bousso-Moghaddam result, this is for essentially the same reason as that of Penrose -- the light-sheet must be compact, so that $D(\sigma )=D(L_{i})$ (where $L_{i}$ is/are the light-sheets), and $S(\sigma )\sim iS(L_{i})$. – VaibhavK May 01 '23 at 15:19