Is there a way to experimentally test if the cosmological red shift observed is due to the expansion or intrinsic to the galaxy? If anyone knows how to do this or how to extract from the data please share this information here.
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1Can you clarify what it means for cosmological redshift to be "intrinsic to the galaxy" you mean that galaxies far away just emit lower frequency light? Or by "the galaxy" do you mean this galaxy (the milky way)? – AXensen Apr 20 '23 at 14:29
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@AXensen Hi! I am referring to all galaxies that are observed to be red-shifted from our location Earth. – Markoul11 Apr 20 '23 at 14:32
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yes I understood this. I wasn't asking for clarification of what the cosmological redshift was. I was asking for clarification around your proposal that it is "intrinsic to the galaxy" (what galaxy? And in what way is the redshift caused by that galaxy) – AXensen Apr 20 '23 at 14:33
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@AXensen Also by "intrinsic" I mean for whatever reasons other than expansion of space, a galaxy appears to be red-shifting due to unknown reasons related with the galaxy itself. . – Markoul11 Apr 20 '23 at 14:35
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the observed redshift is also influenced by doppler effect due to peculiar velocities of observer and the source (galaxies) , besides the cosmological redshift – KP99 Apr 20 '23 at 14:37
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Yes, there is a proposal saying that the red shift is due to something "intrinsic to the galaxy", see here: https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/75296/baryon-masses-in-wetterichs-new-cosmology – MadMax Apr 20 '23 at 16:13
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Galaxies more than 50 Mpc or so from us show a redshift suggesting $v=Hd$ (see here for how we get $d$). There are a lot of such galaxies. So either every sufficiently distant galaxy has stars just red enough to trick us into thinking $v=Hd$ for all of them, all with the same $H$, or the universe is expanding. – J.G. Apr 20 '23 at 22:12
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Can we go to these galaxies and measure the velocity difference between us and them? No. That would be the "direct experiment" that can't be done. So we have to rely on our knowledge about what causes redshift. From a scientific perspective Doppler effect is the most simple answer. It is compatible with everything else we know and it satisfies Occam's razor. As soon as we start using different explanations we are in need of ever more additional assumptions like... how do distant galaxies "know" by how much they have to be redshifted? Can they tell that humans are looking at them? – FlatterMann Apr 20 '23 at 22:40
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Red shift occurs due to speed of recession and gravitational fields. It seems to me that all red shift has been attributed to speed of recession, even though "dark matter", with it's gravitational effects, seems to make up a very large part of the universe. While I'm admittedly far from an expert in this area, the JWST has recently made observations that definitely conflict with the big bang theory, so something in the current theory isn't quite right. – David White Apr 21 '23 at 03:19
4 Answers
There're a few ways to do it. If we assume that the observed redshift is not due to expansion, then something else must be causing it. What could that something else be?
- Maybe the light is losing energy because it is climbing out of a potential well (aka gravitational redshift). This is something that can be checked, because the equations governing gravitational redshift are well-known. The effect turns out to be too small to account for the observed redshift. See this 2011 paper, for which the gravitational redshift of galaxy clusters turns out to be a few km/s, not nearly enough to match cosmological redshift (which is many orders of magnitude larger).
- Maybe the light is losing energy because it is traveling through (non-expanding) space. This is the tired light hypothesis, which is generally regarded as falsified.
- Maybe space is static but everything else is receding from us. This makes the redshift a pure doppler redshift. Problem with this is, how why are those galaxies receding from us? Did we kick them? If so, how? See also Copernican principle.
- Maybe stars in faraway galaxies are just redder. But how would you create a star that is redder? Starlight is well-understood (see main sequence), and you can't get stars that are that much redder from the same building blocks as stars around us (i.e. hydrogen/helium), unless you postulate that the laws of physics themselves are different far away from us, which has its own set of problems. Another issue with this is that you need to be able to explain how your modified stars are still able to go supernova (necessary because we can observe supernovae in faraway galaxies).
So: it's not that people don't try, it's just that we cannot find another explanation that matches the data.

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+1, but note that in an ensemble of galaxies all moving away from some point through static space, and at different velocities, any observer would see all other galaxies recede from them. Observationally it would look identical to what we do observe, so we don't have to invoke the Copernican principle (see e.g. the figure in this answer on astro.SE). This scenario would not be compatible with general relativity, though. – pela Apr 21 '23 at 15:07
The intrinsic gravitational redshift (which would be too small to explain high redshift galaxies in any case - also, why would redshift depend on distance?) would be proportional to $M/R$.
Galaxies often come in pairs, groups or clusters. Yet the galaxies within the pair, group or cluster share very similar redshifts despite often having very different masses and radii.

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Yes, there is a proposal claiming that the universe isn't expanding, and red shift is due to something "intrinsic to the galaxy". Specifically, in Wetterich's "Universe without expansion" scenario, it's the masses of fundamental particles which are changing and causing the redshift.
Wetterich's growing mass interpretation may be plausible, but it comes with a big problem: the red-shifted photon frequency emitted from a given atom is related to the reduced mass of the electron $$ \mu= \frac{M m_e}{M + m_e} = m_e\frac{1}{1 + \frac{m_e}{M}}, $$ where $m_e$ is the electron mass and $M$ is the mass of the nucleus.
In order to be consistent with the observed uniform redshift for all atoms, one is expecting to hold ratio $m_e/M$ constant. Giving that $m_e$ is coming from Higgs mechanism and $M$ is coming mostly from QCD, it's a tall order.
See details here.

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One way is to look at the 21 cm hydrogen line, which will be redshifted.
Cepheid variable may help, as their periods and luminosity are related. The luminosity is mostly $1/r^2$, but there should be a $T/z$ (or $z-1$, ask an expert) temperature shift, and the period should be Doppler shifted too, in which case there is unique velocity and distance determined by a single object...though I don't know if it's done this way. Ask Astronomy.

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