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I have a hard time understanding time dilation and special relativity; each explanation seems to contradict the other, and don't explain the apparent paradoxes they cause.

Say clock A orbits clock B at a very high speed. According to the explanations I've heard, B would perceive A as ticking slower than B, because of time dilation. But since A has equal right to claim to be stationary, it should observe B as orbiting A, thus ticking slower than A. If at any moment the clocks' time would be measured, would their respective elapsed time be different? In other words, is one clock actually slower than the other? This seems unreasonable, since the respective situations of the clocks are identical.

If the answer is no, what exactly happens if the clocks suddenly stopped orbiting each other and become stationary relative to each other? If each clock has perceived the other as ticking slower for a while, would the clocks instantly jump to the same time? This also seems unreasonable, since orbiting each other for a longer time then would imply a different outcome when stopping, even if the events of stopping are identical. How can this be resolved?

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  • And since you seem to be specifically interested in circular motion see Can a ultracentrifuge be used to test general relativity? – John Rennie May 26 '23 at 12:42
  • $A$ may claim he's stationary but moving in an orbit he can't claim to be inertial (and the fact that he isn't inertial is empirically demonstrable from within his frame of reference). If both are orbiting a common point neither are inertial – Amit May 26 '23 at 12:44
  • What we "perceive" is not time dilation but Doppler effect. A clock that is approaching us is blue-shifted and a clock that is receding is red-shifted. There is also a transverse Doppler effect in relativity for a clock that is moving perpendicular to us. Those are the physical effects that we can measure and for changing velocity you also have to calculate the signal delay. All the "paradoxes" that you have heard about are being caused by a blind replacement of these actual physical effects with the time dilation formula that is part of the Lorentz transformations. Its just shoddy thinking. – FlatterMann May 26 '23 at 13:22
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    With respect FlatterMann what you write is misleading. Both people in the supposed paradox can easily account for any Doppler shift - if you think the situation is symmetric then you will still end up with a paradox. Doppler shift has no relevance to the question, since this is about the actual time coordinates in two reference frames. The resolution of the supposed paradox is entirely due to the fact that (just like the twin paradox) the two observer's worldlines are not symmetrical in Minkowski space. – SvenForkbeard May 26 '23 at 13:49
  • @SvenForkbeard The situation with respect to the Doppler shift is not symmetric in the twin paradox. The Doppler shift observed by the traveler changes immediately as soon as he reverses direction while the Doppler shift of the stationary observer stays the same for a while due to signal delay. Doppler is the physical quantity that we can measure (in astronomy for instance but also in spaceflight applications), Minkowski spaces and diagrams are merely abstractions. – FlatterMann May 26 '23 at 14:04
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    You seem to be calling the way most people think of special relativity (including its founders) as abstract. If you really want to take such an extreme empirical view then you must realise that most people will not find it helpful. Moreover, special relativity is not simply about Doppler shifts - it says something much deeper about spacetime - so I don't know how you think you can use Doppler shifts as a useful starting point for answering a question about coordinate time. – SvenForkbeard May 26 '23 at 14:21
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    once you include "orbiting", it's not special relativity. A is not inertial and accelerates to be in a circle. Orbit implies gravitational free fall, do you mean revolve? A is stationary, but not really. There is no absolute rest frame, a major SR thing. If you want SR: reformulate the question with at least piecewise inertial frames. – JEB May 26 '23 at 14:29
  • Also: for future reference, it is traditional to introduce the so-called stationary frame 1st, so once you open with "A" is orbiting "B", you're at a disadvantage. – JEB May 26 '23 at 14:33
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    @FlatterMann Please stop posting answers in comments. – PM 2Ring May 26 '23 at 14:38
  • @SvenForkbeard If you wish to have a discussion about physical reality vs. abstraction, we can have that in the chat room. I don't think it belongs here. I simply gave the OP a trivial hint of how one can think about the twin "paradox" on the phenomenological level, which is a perfectly valid approach to the problem that resolves it in a few words with no math necessary. – FlatterMann May 26 '23 at 14:43
  • @PM2Ring That's fair. The twin paradox has been discussed to death on this site (and basically on every other social medium). I don't see a point in adding one more unnecessary answer to a question that should be closed as a duplicate. – FlatterMann May 26 '23 at 14:45
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    As people have said, being in orbit adds a complication to your question. You can simplify by supposing that A is floating in space far from a planet, and B goes whizzing by. From B's point of view. B is floating in space and A went whizzing by. – mmesser314 May 26 '23 at 15:33
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    As people have said, google the Twin Paradox for more information about your confusion. Or search this site. Relativity is confusing. It takes time and thought to get used to the fact that the universe works according to rules that contradict classical thinking. – mmesser314 May 26 '23 at 15:36
  • You can't understand how time dilation can be symmetric without understanding what relativity of simultaneity truly means. You have to stop thinking about space, and start thinking about spacetime instead. The "now" moment (which is all of space at a particular instant) is a slice through spacetime. What a moving observer considers "now" quite literally slices spacetime at a different angle compared to a stationary observer & each has a time axis that tilts in a different direction in spacetime - this is what's symmetrical. This + the finite speed of light is what causes relativistic effects – Filip Milovanović May 26 '23 at 20:35

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The proper time between two events is given by $\Delta \tau^2=\Delta t^2-\Delta x^2/c^2$. The proper time measures the amount of time that passes on the clock of an observer that travels in a straight line between those two events. You can break up the curved path of the orbiting clock into many infinitesimally small straight line segments. You can integrate all those segments to get the total proper time for the orbiting clock using the following formula $$\tau=\int\mathrm dt\, \sqrt{1-\dot x^2/c^2}$$ In other words: plug in a path $x(t)$ of an observer and this formula will give you the time that has passed on this observers clock. If you calculate this for $A$ and $B$ you will see that $B$, the inertial observer, will have the largest proper time, i.e. its clock will have ticked the fastest. If two observers both pass through two spacetime points, the observer that travelled in a straight line will always have the largest proper time. To remember this you can use the following mnemonic. An observer at rest only travels in time, while an observer that is moving at certain speed is moving more slowly through time because he now also has to move through space. For an inertial observer, you can always move to a frame where this observer is at rest, so the proper time is the largest.

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  1. B is in a fixed inertial frame. In that frame, A's clock ticks slowly.

  2. A (the orbiter) is in a constantly changing inertial frame --- say A1 at a given moment M1 and A2 at a moment M2 shortly thereafter. In both frames A1 and A2, B ticks slowly.

  3. In frame A1, A itself ticks slowly at moment M2 and in frame A2, A itself ticks slowly at moment M1. At any given moment, A says that A usually ticks slowly; it just happens to be ticking normally right at this very moment. Also, in those various frames, A at various moments started off out of synch by different amounts.

  4. To keep track of things from A's viewpoint requires accounting for the constant changes of frame which result in constant changes in both A's own tick rate at various points along the orbit and its original offset at various points along the orbit. That can be a little complicated.

  5. But this much is easy: B has a single unchanging inertial frame, and in that frame A ticks slowly. Therefore A falls behind B, and continues to fall farther behind as time goes on.

WillO
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You might find it less confusing if you abandon any notion of clocks ticking at different rates.

Time dilation refers to the fact that the time between two events that occur in one place in an inertial frame is less than the time between the same events in any other inertial frame in which they occur in two different places.

Suppose you sit in your chair and count ten seconds on your watch. In the rest frame of passing muons, your ten second interval might be 100 seconds long, owing to the time dilation effect- in the muon frame, you are travelling at nearly the speed of light, so the start and end of your count occur at two widely separated places.

Now notice that it is the length of the interval that differs between the two frames- in one it is ten seconds and in the other it is one hundred. A second is a second, and good clocks accurately measure seconds. So when your watch records only ten seconds for an interval that in the muon frame is one hundred seconds, it is not because your watch is 'ticking slowly'- it is ticking correctly. What is different is the actual duration of the interval between the two frames.

Hopefully you can now be in a position to see why time dilation can be reciprocal. A person sitting in the muon frame could count ten seconds on their watch, while the same interval in your frame- where the start and end are very far apart spatially- would be one hundred seconds long.

What I have said so far applies to inertial frames. For non-inertial frames the physics is much more complicated, but the underlying principle is that the duration between two events is dependent on the path between them, and in general the effects are not symmetrical in the way that they are between two inertial frames. This is the reason for the famous twin 'paradox'- which is not a paradox, because there is no symmetry in the overall arrangement (one twin remains in a single rest frame through-out, while the other does not).

Marco Ocram
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