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Background

So I realised the following:

  1. What enables us to talk about kinematics and dynamics separately is Newton's first law:

A body remains at rest, or in motion at a constant speed in a straight line, unless acted upon by a force.

  1. Hence, one can ask questions of kinematics and dynamics independently. For example, consider an ideal elastic collision between $2$ point like objects. Let the potential be of the form: $$ V=\begin{cases} 0 & r_1 \neq r_2 \\ V_0 & r_1 = r_2 \end{cases} $$ Where $r_i$ is the position of the $i$'th particle and $V_0$ is the minimum potential energy to behave as a turning point. Note, $V_0 \to 2 V_0$ will result in the same equations of motion (and thus kinematics). What should be the value of $V_0$ is a question of dynamics.
  2. When one takes the low energy/velocity limit of the action in relativistic mechanics and reaches Newtonian mechanics. This is actually a statement of the kinematics of special relativity reducing to the kinematics of non-relativistic classical mechanics.
  3. Thus, if one were to pose the question what is the value of $V_0$ in the theory of Newtonian mechanics (where the answer is $V_0 = \frac{1}{2} \mu v_{rel}^2$) versus relativistic mechanics (I believe the answer is $V_0 = \mu\gamma_{rel}c^2$) where $v_{rel}$ is the relative velocity and $\gamma$ is it's corresponding gamma factor, in the limit $v_{rel}/c \to 0$, it is a possibility that they may have different answers. In fact, these answers do not match.

Question

I haven't heard of this before, I suspect there should be a flaw? If so, can someone point it out?

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    You haven't really demonstrated a problem here, and it looks like there's a lot more information than needed to set up what you're asking. You might want to try rephrasing your question – Señor O Jun 14 '23 at 05:33
  • @SeñorO I've linked the information required now. Hopefully, that suffices? – More Anonymous Jun 14 '23 at 05:58
  • Reason for downvote? – More Anonymous Jun 14 '23 at 06:26
  • (Not the downvoter) Your construction is flawed, your potential does not model elastic collision, if interpreted in the standard way in terms of Sobolev spaces it is just the same as $V = 0$. Also note that your construction is also flawed in the sense, that you have to fit your potential to the initial conditions: Why should your particles have a different potential in dependence of the initial velocities? – Sebastian Riese Jun 14 '23 at 07:25
  • @SebastianRiese different point particles can have different potential. These potentials are independent of particle velocity. All this calculation implies is one will just see a potential $V_0$ above which stability is no longer there for elastic collisions. How much energy should I collide my particles with to get $V_0$? I use the condition $E \geq V$. Usually people do this with finite radius and set the potential as infinity: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_spheres – More Anonymous Jun 14 '23 at 07:46
  • I am not mathematically adept enough to comment on Sobolev spaces but i do find it odd one cannot model this phenomena in special relativity. – More Anonymous Jun 14 '23 at 07:46
  • @MoreAnonymous Maybe the problem is that in relativity you can not use "static" potentials like in Newtonian theory? ("haven't heard of this before", means that you have a reference for this example in your question?) – Quillo Jun 14 '23 at 08:22
  • @Quillo i wasn't aware of this. Can you share a reference? I merely meant I couldn't find any reference to this kind of argument despite doing a search. – More Anonymous Jun 14 '23 at 08:25
  • @MoreAnonymous Think about Newton gravity: as you move an object far far away you instantly modify the 1/r potential "attached to it" everywhere in the universe.. not very "relativistic". See e.g. links in the comments here: https://physics.stackexchange.com/q/298123/226902 https://physics.stackexchange.com/q/172840/226902 – Quillo Jun 14 '23 at 08:28
  • I'm uncertain how exactly this suggested point potential would conflict with relativity but if you can show an explicit contradiction I'll accept that answer. – More Anonymous Jun 14 '23 at 08:33
  • @MoreAnonymous But your $V_0$ is not dependent on the kind of particle, but on the initial conditions. Note, that there is much less of a problem with hard spheres of a finite dimension (at least in Newtonian mechanics, in relativity you won't get a Lorentz invariant theory). As I've set the $r \to 0$ limit of those hard spheres gets problematic – if you have a non-hard sphere, your limit (which keeps the overall interaction strength in some way) will be $V_0 \delta(r_1 - r_2)$, but if you start with an infinite potential, the limit does no longer exist as $V_0$ would have to be infinite. – Sebastian Riese Jun 14 '23 at 09:04
  • @SebastianRiese I'm not sure where the source of the confusion is on the first point. Imagine an experimenter in a lab shooting point particles at each other. At some energy level will cause the the point particles to break. Yes now the experimenter does find that energy level by changing the dail of when does this instability occur. In that sense it does depend on the velocity but I don't see this as a problem. On the second point, I think you mean $V$ (not V_0) is infinite at the time of collision which I'll trust you is the only mathematical expression available. – More Anonymous Jun 14 '23 at 09:14
  • Ah, you use the term potential in a non-standard way. Usually, we mean a function of the positions (and perhaps the time) $V(r_1, r_2)$ that shows the potential for all configurations of the system. You state the value of the potential function when the solution of the equations of motion is plugged in. The value at a single point in time is not defined as soon as you leave the realm of sufficiently smooth functions. It is moot to discuss the value of the step function $\theta(x)$ at $x = 0$ – it is a distribution, not a function, evaluation at points is not defined. – Sebastian Riese Jun 14 '23 at 09:20
  • @SebastianRiese Can't I think of $V$ as a scalar field? (Just curious) But feel free to write up an answer if you feel like :) – More Anonymous Jun 14 '23 at 09:28
  • Yes you can, but then the from of $V$ you give does not model elastic collision, and $V_0$ can't depend of the initial conditions. – Sebastian Riese Jun 14 '23 at 09:30
  • I think I'm not mathematically well equipped to understand the subtlety but thank you :) – More Anonymous Jun 14 '23 at 09:38

1 Answers1

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I hope that I've understood your question correctly. Let me rephrase the question to make clear what I will try to answer.

(1) We want to describe the elastic collision of two particles.

(2) We choose to model the particles as "hard spheres", i.e. they interact via a potential energy $$V(x_1,x_2) = \begin{cases} V_0 \ &\text{if } \ |x_1 - x_2| < d \\ 0 \ &\text{otherwise} \end{cases},$$

where $d$ is the diameter of the sphere which I've allowed to be finite to avoid mathematical issues (cf. the discussion in the comments). We could also make the potential differentiable by introducing "ramping" function that ramps up the potential from 0 to $V_0$ in a differentiable manner. Note that this potential is not relativistically invariant because the quantity $|x_1 - x_2|$ is not invariant, but as only the height of the potential barrier ends up being important for this problem, I don't think this is a major issue.

(3) The question you are asking (as I understand) is what should be the minimum value $V_0$ of the potential wall be in order for two given particles to bounce back, rather than pass right through each other.

To answer the question, we make use of the fact that for an elastic collision both momentum and energy are conserved. Let us go to a frame where the total momentum is zero, i.e. $$m_1 \gamma_1 \dot{x}_1 + m_2 \gamma_2 \dot{x}_2 = 0.$$ The total energy of the system is $$E = m_1 \gamma_1 c^2 + m_2\gamma_2 c^2 + V = \text{const.}$$

Because we chose a frame in which the total momentum is zero, we can say that in order for the particles to bounce off each other, $V_0$ must be sufficiently large such that $\dot{x}_1 = \dot{x}_2 = 0$ is a solution to the energy equation. Inserting this, we find that we require $$V_0 > E - m_1 c^2 - m_2 c^2 = (\gamma_1 - 1) m_1 c^2 + (\gamma_2 - 1)m_2 c^2.$$

In the classical limit, $m_i (\gamma_i - 1) c^2 \approx \frac{1}{2} m_i v_i^2$, and we find that in this case the requirement becomes $$V_0 > \frac{1}{2} m_1 v_1^2 + \frac{1}{2} m_2 v_2^2 = \frac{1}{2} \mu v_\mathrm{rel}^2,$$

which matches the classical result derived in the other answer.

Jakob KS
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