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Doesn't electron capture imply an electron is not a point charge?

It needs to have a radius that overlaps with the proton. If it was a point charge, no matter how close it got to the proton, the electron will never overlap with the proton, and electron capture would be impossible.

dan
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    what is a proton? see https://profmattstrassler.com/articles-and-posts/largehadroncolliderfaq/whats-a-proton-anyway/ – anna v Jun 17 '23 at 10:44
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    When we say "point charge" we generally mean charge that can be considered concentrated at a point when viewed far enough aways from the charge. – Bob D Jun 17 '23 at 15:26
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    Sometimes an electron or a photon is described as a particle and sometimes as a wave. Both are approximately right, and can be useful in the right situation. But really the electron is neither. These posts may help. How can a red light photon be different from a blue light photon? and Does the collapse of the wave function happen immediately everywhere? – mmesser314 Jun 17 '23 at 16:25
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    Points, lines, circles, etc. are mathematical objects that exist only in human imagination. They can be excellent models of reality, but they are not real. Much confusion may be avoided if you understand that all models are limited, approximate representations of reality. – John Doty Jun 17 '23 at 16:39
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    Possible duplicates: https://physics.stackexchange.com/q/119732/2451 , https://physics.stackexchange.com/q/41676/2451 , https://physics.stackexchange.com/q/277565/2451 and links therein. – Qmechanic Jun 17 '23 at 20:00
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    @JohnDoty Incidentally, there is near-total philosophical agreement that either: 1) mathematical objects are real, non-spatial, non-temporal, and non-mental, or 2) mathematical objects are not real in any sense, even as ideas. See https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/platonism/. However, the point in your comment stands: the mapping of mathematical abstractions to physical sensations can easily be flat-out wrong. – Duncan W Jun 18 '23 at 04:27
  • An electron is a quantum of energy, momentum, angular momentum and charge. It's not a particle or any other kind of object. It doesn't have a size, position or path. These are all just very poor mental models for the quantum mechanical reality. – FlatterMann Jun 18 '23 at 07:05
  • @FlatterMann You mean quantum mechanical abstraction. Particles and waves are generally excellent models of physical reality, as observed in experiments. You just need to learn when to use which model. – John Doty Jun 18 '23 at 11:57
  • @JohnDoty A particle in physics is defined as "the approximation of the motion of an extended classical object by the motion of its center of mass". That is certainly not how a quantum of energy behaves. Neither does it ever show wave properties. Only the quantum mechanical ensemble can show wave properties. And once many quanta are in play, they behave like cheese and cubes of tungsten and neutron stars. They don't behave like waves, either. Wave particle duality is simply a very poor mental model that doesn't do much good. – FlatterMann Jun 18 '23 at 15:35
  • @FlatterMann How do you understand how a grating spectroscope works? – John Doty Jun 18 '23 at 15:55
  • @JohnDoty It "works" with classical waves. Absolutely no quantum mechanics needed. The problem with wave-particle duality is not that there are no waves. The problem is that there are many other phenomena (like cheese) that are not either particles or waves. Wave-particle duality is reductionism gone wrong. It is an unbecoming thinking pattern that leads people down the wrong path. – FlatterMann Jun 18 '23 at 15:58
  • @FlatterMann It works with classical waves until those waves encounter your detector. – John Doty Jun 18 '23 at 16:05

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Your reasoning is wrong, but you are right to be cautious about the notion of a 'point charge'.

First of all, let's note that a proton is not a point charge. So a point-like thing could easily overlap with a proton.

Next let's note that, in quantum theory, the locations of things are described by wavefunctions and in practice the idealised perfectly narrow distribution (Dirac delta function) never occurs. It does not occur because it would require infinite energy. So in this sense electrons are not point-like because no material entity of any kind can be in a point-like position distribution.

On the other hand it is currently believed that electrons have no sub-structure and furthermore in ordinary quantum mechanics they are treated as point-like in a technical sense, in that one imagines the total set of processes in which they can in principle take part includes those infinitely narrow distributions. In other ideas for basic physics, such as string theory, the situation is a bit different.

Finally, in classical physics there are also difficulties with point-like objects, because they would have infinite gravitational and electrical energy.

So, in short, we don't expect truly point-like things anywhere in physics.

Andrew Steane
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  • Can we extend this reasoning to state that to be able to interact with each other ( at c speed ), the proton and the electron can't be point like along the time axis? – dan Jun 17 '23 at 19:51
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    @dan Neither protons nor electrons are point-like. Electrons, quarks and gluons are quanta of quantum fields. The fields are extended (through the entire universe) but their interactions can be represented by point-like mechanism... at least for energies below 1TeV. What happens at much higher energies is unknown, but it may not boil down to point-like interactions. That is the reason why string theory tries a different approach. – FlatterMann Jun 18 '23 at 07:15
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In my own opinion, you need to consider both descriptions : wave-like and point-like to fully understand what is going on at the atomic scale. There are several examples where we need a point-like charge to fully understand some phenomena. Here are two example where a translational and a rotational symmetry are involved.

In solid state physics, a strongly correlated system (where Bloch's translational symmetry is broken) is described by a coulomb potential acting a point-like particle hopping from one atomic site to another making a transition from a metal to and insulator (Hubbard Hamiltonian). A wave-like description cannot lead to such a simple and elegant description perfectly in agreement with experimental measurements.

The orbital magnetic moment and the orbital angular momentum can be described classically by a point-like particle rotating. Obviously, a wavy description is needed for the quantization of the angular momentum.

To summarize a point-like description is often essential to describe the motion leading to the stationary state and a wave-like description encompasses the symmetry (translational or rotational) of this motion in the wave function leading to the ground state.

It might not be the answer of your question by I hope it helps.

M06-2x
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    If a point-like charge distribution (one with no radius) has non-zero charge then it will have infinite field energy and hence infinite mass. The hopping description in condensed matter physics does not, therefore, concern actually point-like entities. It concerns entities of small but non-zero spatial extension. – Andrew Steane Jun 17 '23 at 11:18
  • @AndrewSteane This debate of point-likeness leads nowhere. I have described a point-like as a useful picture. The examples comsider point-like particles. I want to emphasize the fact that there is no particle hopping in the stationary state, this state is sationnary not dynamic as solution of SE and is wavy. A point-like particle hopping is a picture brringing corrections. No need to invoke the banal argument of infinite physical properties. – M06-2x Jun 17 '23 at 11:44
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    The question was about the point-like concept, not about some other aspect of physics. – Andrew Steane Jun 17 '23 at 12:26
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The notion "point particle" is coming from classical mechanics, where all fields $F(t,x)$ acting on a point particle, identified by its enumerated center of mass coordinate $x_k$ with momentum $p_k$, can simply expressed as $F(x_k)$ by replacing the field coordinate with the coordinate of the particle passing that point.

Gravitational and electric interactions can be formulated in terms of the kinetic momentum $p_k - \frac{e}{c}\ A(x_k) $ involving corrections to the canonical momentum $p$.

The central entity is the quadratic norm of of the kinetic momentum, aka "mass times transport velocity" $$(p(x_k)-A(x_k))^2 = G(x_k)((p(x_k)-A(x_k)),(p(x_k)-A(x_k)) )$$ as a simple square, whrere again only the center of mass coordinate $x_k$ determines the gravitational effects at a point in space.

This classical notion of "point particles with no internal structure" is transfered, by the principle of first quantizaton (Heisenberg, Schrödinger, Dirac), to quantum mechanics.

In quantum mechanics, paths of position and momentum in phase space are replaced by position operator $$X_k: \ f(x_1,\dots,x_n) \to \ x_k \ f(x_1,\dots,x_n)$$ and momentum operator $$P_k\ f(x_1,\dots,x_n)\to -i \ \partial_{x_k}\ f(x_1,\dots,x_n)$$

and to the astonishment of the public, again the external electric and graviatational fields are pointwise encoded in the square of the momentum operators

$$ G(x_k)(P_k - \frac{e}{c}\ A(x_k)), P_k - \frac{e}{c}\ A(x_k))$$

The states in quantum mechanics can be as diluted or concentrated in space as external field conditions deman, making obsolate all speculations about their the electric field energy of their own charge.

The first step in the interaction of many electrons in these wave functions of many variables, is to eliminate the electric self energy.

The reason for this step is clear: Quantums first priciple since Planck is the energy of photons with fixed frequency $$ \hbar \omega_k = E_k$$ But the Fourier representation of the static Coulomb field has $\omega_k=0$ for all euclidean modes $k$ with density $\frac{1}{k^2}$. They simply don't take part in the energy exchange game.

  • Even in classical mechanics the definition of a "particle" is "the approximation of the motion of an extended body by the motion of its center of mass", i.e. it is not actually about the size of the body but about the suppression of internal degrees of freedom and rotation for the sake of simplified calculations. A planet can be a particle in the Kepler problem, but one can never do aeronautical engineering with particle approximations... the state of motion of aircraft always involves rotations, internal shifts in the center of mass and deformations of control surfaces. – FlatterMann Jun 18 '23 at 07:17