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We know from euler-lagrange, that $S$ should be minimized, which in turn means (KE-PE) should be minimized at each smallest interval along the path.

I'm not trying to understand the math here, it's actually clear how minimization is achieved, but I'm curious about intuition. Let's bring a simple example: a ball of 1kg is at height = 3m and starts to fall vertically only. So its total energy before falling is $U = mgh = 29.8$. It can choose many motion path($x(t)$), but why would it choose minimal? from 0 sec to 0.001sec interval, it will try to have KE - PE minimal, which in turn means in order for the interval to have minimal, KE - PE must be minimal and this is minimal if PE is as much as possible and KE as little as possible. Whats the intuition here? it tries to transform as small energy to PE from KE?

Update

I understand the following by reading Cleonis's answer

$\Delta K = - \Delta P$ over any infinetisemal interval which means it's the same for any big interval.

For infinetisemal point, we write: $\frac{dK}{dt} = -\frac{dP}{dt}$. I put $-$ sign because $\frac{dP}{dt} $ is actually a slope which will be with a different sign and adding $-$makes it equal to kinetic energy change.

Then, we can write: $\frac{dK}{dt} + \frac{dP}{dt} = 0$ We derived with this over infinetisemal time, but we know it must hold true for any interval, hence if our interval is $t_0 -> t_1$, we will integrate it over that interval.

Since both K and P are dependent on position/time, in the end, they're both dependent on $t$. so we do $\int_{t0}^{t1} K(t) + \int_{t0}^{t1} P(t) = 0$

I think somehow, now I'm doing "addition" instead of subtraction which got me confused and also and I don't know, but it turns out i don't even need the derivation in the end.

Giorgi
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2 Answers2

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The criterion is that the derivative of Hamilton's action is zero.

The variation of the trial trajectory is variation of the spatial coordinate.

To find the point in variation space where the derivative of Hamilton's action is zero you take the derivative with respect to the variation. Since the variation is variation of position: you take the derivative of Hamilton's action with respect to the position coordinate.

(And of course, when there are multiple degrees of freedom you take the derivative for each of those spatial degrees of freedom.)

You want to populate the Euler-Lagrange equations with entities such that when you evaluate the Euler-Lagrange equation you will recover $F=ma$.

The operation that is specified/performed by the Euler-Lagrange equation is differentiation with respect to the position coordinate. Therefore in order to recover $F=ma$ you want to populate the equation with the integrals of the left hand side and the right hand side of $F=ma$

The integral of force with respect to the position coordinate gives the expression for potential energy.

About acceleration: in preparation for later use we take an arbitrary acceleration (an acceleration as a function of time), and integrate that with respect to the position coordinate.

In the following the differential is changed two times, the first change uses $ds = v \ dt$, the second change uses $a \ dt = dv$. With each change of differential the limits change accordingly.

$$ \int_{s_0}^s a \ ds = \int_{t_0}^t a \ v \ dt = \int_{t_0}^t v \ a \ dt = \int_{v_0}^v v \ dv = \tfrac{1}{2}v^2 - \tfrac{1}{2}v_0^2 \tag{1.1} $$

With the intermediate steps omitted:

$$ \int_{s_0}^s a \ ds = \tfrac{1}{2}v^2 - \tfrac{1}{2}v_0^2 \tag{1.2} $$

Incidentally, a remarkable property of (1.2) is this: the form of the right hand side is identical to the case of uniform acceleration.

With uniform acceleration:

$$ a (s - s_0) = \tfrac{1}{2}v^2 - \tfrac{1}{2}v_0^2 \tag{1.3} $$

So, how does it come about that (1.2) and (1.3) have identical right hand side? It goes back to the fact that position, velocity and acceleration are in a very special relation to each other. We have: position, first time derivative of position, second time derivative of position. Dimensionality; the product of acceleration and position has the same dimensionality as velocity squared. Those relations lead to special properties.


We take $F=ma$, and we integrate both sides with respect to the position coordinate:

$$ \int_{s_0}^s F \ ds = \int_{s_0}^s m \ a \ ds \tag{1.4} $$

Using (1.22) to develop the right hand side:

$$ \int_{s_0}^s F \ ds = \tfrac{1}{2}mv^2 - \tfrac{1}{2}mv_0^2 \tag{1.5} $$

(1.5) is the Work-Energy theorem.

The way that potential energy is defined slots in with the left hand side of (1.5), and the way that kinetic energy is defined slots in with the right hand side of (1.5)

As we know: the following is the operation that the Euler-Lagrange equation performs on the kinetic energy:

$$ \frac{d}{dt} \left( \frac{d(\tfrac{1}{2}mv^2)}{dv} \right) = \frac{d}{dt} (mv) = ma \tag{1.6} $$

It looks as if (1.6) does something other than taking the derivative with respect to the position coordinate, but that is actually not the case.

$$ \frac{d(\tfrac{1}{2}mv^2)}{ds} = \tfrac{1}{2}m\left( 2v\frac{dv}{ds} \right) = m\frac{ds}{dt}\frac{dv}{ds} = m\frac{dv}{dt} = ma \tag{1.7} $$

(1.6) and (1.7) evaluate to the same quantity: $ma$, the product of mass and acceleration. That means that (1.6) and (1.7) are in fact the same differentiation, only different notation.



There are also classes of cases such that the true trajectory corresponds to a maximum of Hamilton's action. Example: when the potential energy increases in proportion to the cube of the displacement: the true trajectory is at a point in variation space such that Hamilton's action is at a maximum.

It is essential to not think in terms of minimum or maximum. It is clear that minimum/maximum is immaterial. What counts is the derivative of Hamilton's action.

When the rate of change of kinetic energy matches the rate of change of potential energy everywhere along the trajectory: that is the true trajectory.

The point in variation space where those two rates of change match each other everywhere is the point in variation space where the derivative of Hamilton's action is zero.



In the following I expand on the 'derivative is zero' criterion.

enter image description here

In the diagram red curve and the green curve are both ascending functions.
Red: $f(x) = \frac{1}{2} x^2$
Green: $ g(x) = ln(x) $

Problem: at what x-coordinate do the functions $f(x)$ and $g(x)$ have the same slope?
Phrased differently: at what x-coordinate is the rate of change of $f(x)$ equal to the rate of change of $g(x)$?

The direct way to answer that question is to start by taking the derivative of each function, and then solve for the point where the two derivatives have the same value:

$$ \frac{f(x)}{dx} = \frac{g(x)}{dx} \tag{2.1} $$

$$ \frac{\tfrac{1}{2}x^2}{dx} = \frac{ln(x)}{dx} \tag{2.2} $$

$$ x = \frac{1}{x} \tag{2.3} $$

There is also a more convoluted way to address the problem:
I will refer to this more convoluted way as constructing a 'mathematical action':
Create a third function by subtracting the second function from the first function.

$$ h(x) = f(x) - g(x) \tag{2.4} $$

$$ h(x) = \tfrac{1}{2} x^2 - ln(x) \tag{2.5} $$

In the diagram the blue curve represents $h(x)$, the 'mathematical action'.

The point where the derivative of the blue curve, the 'mathematical action', is zero, is the point where the red curve and the green curve have the same slope, the same rate of change.

In the case of application of the Euler-Lagrange equation: we can think of the true trajectory as subdivided into a concatenation of infinitesimally short subsections. Hamilton's action has a derivative of zero if and only if along each infinitesimal subsection the rate of change of kinetic energy matches the rate of change of potential energy.

Cleonis
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  • This all seems good, but the intuitive question why we take KE - PE in the integral is what confuses me. Does nature make sure that object travels in a way that KE-PE is minimum at each subinterval ? but in my analogy, if you refer to my question, for ball analogy, it tries to transform as small energy as possible to PE from KE at each infinetisemal subinterval? it turns out yes, but not sure why. I think this refers to KE/PE for least action of principle. – Giorgi Jul 16 '23 at 13:32
  • @Chemistry I emphasize: you have to let go of thinking in terms of minimizing or maximizing, or extremizing, or what have you. Take the derivative of the kinetic energy and the derivative of the potential energy. We can take the derivative with respect to time, or the derivative with respect to the position coordinate. With respect to the time coordinate $E_k$ and $E_p$ are counter-changing. When you apply variation of the position coordinate: as you sweep out variation of the position coordinate $E_k$ and $E_p$ values are co-changing; that is why Hamitlon's action specifies subtraction. – Cleonis Jul 16 '23 at 16:10
  • @Chemistry See also: a post I submitted in oktober 2021, to a question about motivation for the Lagrangian formalism For that answer I uploaded multiple diagrams – Cleonis Jul 16 '23 at 16:35
  • I updated my question. i think it's more confusing than I thought – Giorgi Jul 17 '23 at 09:25
  • @Chemistry In your update to your question you are limiting yourself to taking the derivative of the energy with respect to time. Here's the thing: the true trajectory has the property that for the kinetic energy and potential energy both derivatives are matching; with respect to time and with respect to position coordinate. The idea is to capitalize on the latter: $\frac{dE_k}{ds} - \frac{dE_p}{ds} = 0 $. Let's sweep out variation of, say, a parabola. Then when you increase the height the hypothetical $E_k$ and the hypothetical $E_p$ both increase. Hence the substraction to compare. – Cleonis Jul 17 '23 at 15:34
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You're correct that this sort of way to solve physics problems is quite counter-intuitive. Let's start with the key detail that was missed in your description: what exactly is held fixed as you minimize the action. The action-minimization process only works if you fix both the initial position $x(t_i)$ and also the final position $x(t_f)$ for any span of time. Then you extremize the action while holding both these points fixed. I think this is one of the most counter-intuitive parts of the whole process. We're used to solving a problem based on initial conditions and dynamical laws, but here we are solving a problem with partial initial conditions (position but not velocity) and partial final conditions.

If you're looking for intuitive analogs to this two-time-boundary problem, the best option is to think about two-space-boundary problems. Think about normal modes on a string held fixed at two points, or the electric field inside of a two-mirror laser cavity. These are also two-boundary problems, but clearly they're not solved from one side to the other; they're solved "all at once".

And this is another counter-intuitive aspect of this approach. You can't solve this from past to future, in order. If you think of the particle like a little robot or tiny person, "deciding" which way to go next based on some dynamical rule, or applied force, you'll never be able to make sense of action extremization. Instead, you have to take the harder viewpoint of stepping "outside of time", thinking about space and time all laid out as a big block, and then considering all possible paths which connect the two endpoints. For advice on how to get into this frame of mind, you might try Huw Price's book, Time's Arrow and Archimedes Point. For more on the "all at once" perspective, you can try my essay The Universe is Not a Computer.

Ken Wharton
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  • Something doesn't add up in the reasoning offered in this answer. Compare the following two problems: 1) Initial value problem: a train travels at a velocity of 100 units of distance per hour, to an end point 100 units of distance away. How long will it take? 2) Boundary value problem: a train travels from a start point to an end point, distance to cover: 100 units of distance, must arrive after 1 hour. At what velocity must the train travel? We are not worried about the train having to decide how fast to go. Having end points fixed affects the order of operations, not the kinematics/physics – Cleonis Jul 16 '23 at 05:42
  • Curiously, action principles don't work if you fix an initial or final velocity; you have to fix the initial and final positions. Also, don't forget in your train problem that all possible intermediate paths are considered. Maybe changing velocities in the middle, going the wrong way for part of the time, etc. A better framework to think about this is a ray of light, obeying Fermat's Principle of Least Time (equivalent to action extremization). Again, in this case, the initial and final locations of the light ray must be specified for it to work, and all light ray paths are considered. – Ken Wharton Jul 16 '23 at 11:29
  • Stackexchange comment space is by design small. (I endorse that policy.) Here in comment space I can only hint, for lack of space; on my stackexchange profile page I give links to my discussions of application of calculus of variations in mechanics. To Fermat's stationary time: Fermat's stationary time has a critical case: reflecting surface in the shape of an ellipse; emission at one focus, all paths reflect to the other focus. As we know: then for all paths the time is the same. That leaves the trajectory of the light underdetermined. I qualify Fermat time as a corrollary, not as a principle – Cleonis Jul 16 '23 at 12:31