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While trying to provide an answer to this question, I got confused with something which I think might be the root of the problem. In the paper the OP was reading, the author writes $$\frac{d\hat{A}}{dt}=\frac{\partial \hat{A}}{\partial t}+\sum_k \frac{\partial \hat{A}}{\partial x_k}\frac{dx_k}{dt}$$

for an observable $\hat{A}$. The author says that this chain rule expansion may be made, as well as the same thing but in momentum, but one may not have both at the same time, which was the source of OP's question. I argued that this was essentially a matter of function definition, and the fact that you can't have an observable depending on both position and momentum, because the operators of which these quantities are eigenvalues don't commute. But that raised the question which I came to pose here: what does it mean for the operator to depend on the $x_i$ or on the $p_i$? Is it something like $$\hat{A}: \Gamma \rightarrow Hom(H)$$ where the operator is mapping points in the phase space to observables in the Hilbert space? If so, is that meaningful? What is the interplay of the phase space here? My confusion lies in the fact that points in phase space as far as my understanding go would correspond to the eigenvalues of the position and momenta operators, and as such can I talk about them meaningfully in this way seeing as they do not commute? Furthermore, what is the meaning of $$\frac{\partial \hat{A}}{\partial x_i}$$

Essentially, what I'm asking about is: how does one define precisely the dependence of an operator on the "classical" degrees of freedom of a system and their conjugate momenta?

EDIT
Following d_b's answer, supposing that the derivative is taken in a classical setting and only then does quantization occur, take as an example the Hamiltonian for a 3D particle in some potential, $$H(x_i,p_i)=\frac{p^2}{2m}+V(x_i)$$ surely we'd all agree that $$\frac{dH}{dt}=\sum_k \frac{\partial H}{\partial x_k}\dot{x_k}+\frac{\partial H}{\partial p_k}\dot{p_k}$$ then "putting a hat on top of it" wouldn't alter the dependence on the $p$'s.
So either this isn't what's meant, or somehow the act of quantization removes one dependence or the other, which I can't see how.

Qmechanic
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    “ you can't have an observable depending on both position and momentum”: what’s wrong with $\hat p\hat x + \hat x\hat p$ as an observable? – ZeroTheHero Aug 17 '23 at 02:36
  • @ZeroTheHero nothing, but that observable doesn't depend on position and momentum in the way I am talking about, it's just the composition and sum of the position and momentum operators – Lourenco Entrudo Aug 17 '23 at 02:55
  • so? take $f(xp+px)$ then… i don’t see any a priori reason why you can’t have functions of both $x$ and $p$. There might be an ordering ambiguity to resolve, but that’s another issue altogether. BTW the paper was withdrawn from arXiv so that can’t be a good sign. – ZeroTheHero Aug 17 '23 at 03:13
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    Related: https://physics.stackexchange.com/q/775922/2451 – Qmechanic Aug 17 '23 at 03:41
  • @ZeroTheHero but the dependence surely is not on the operators... how do you take a derivative wrt to an operator? That's what I mean. Also only the 3rd version of the paper was removed – Lourenco Entrudo Aug 17 '23 at 12:26

2 Answers2

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The linked reference does not contain OP's first equation depending only on the coordinate operators. In fact, the equation in the reference is \begin{align} \frac{dA}{dt} = \frac{\partial A}{\partial t} + \sum_{k\neq0}\frac{\partial A}{\partial q_k}\frac{\partial q_k}{\partial t} \end{align} where the $q_k$ defined on page 5 of the reference:

Let $q = (q_0, q_1, q_2, q_3, \ldots, q_n)$ be the set of observables of a physical system such as a particle or group of particles and take them to be the coordinates of an $n$-dimensional vector $q$ in $q$-space. Spatial coordinates and time are included and placed on the same footing as the other observables.

Apparently this set includes all observables of the system, potentially including the momenta among the "other observables."

I am not sure of the meaning of $\partial A/\partial q_k$. If pressed to interpret it, I would treat $A(q)$ as a function of classical variables (or formal symbols), take the derivative as usual, then promote the $q_k$ to operators. See also this answer.

Actually, reading the reference a little more carefully, it is not clear that the $q_k$ are meant to be interpreted as operators at all. Later in the paper on page 24, an operator $Q$ is associated with the observable $q$. My conclusion is that we are meant to interpret the $q$ as classical observables until their promotion to operators $Q$, although I admit I find the formalism of the reference rather opaque.

d_b
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  • Hi, I’m the OP referred to in the question (thank you to @Lourenco Entrudo for going to such lengths searching for aid to my problem!). The issue is that the paper talks about the $q$ space of variables (including space time) and then in equation 4.26 explicitly expands an arbitrary operator $\hat{A}$ in terms of only space and time for a quite general argument. So I’m at a loss why you can “ignore” the momentum variables in the position representation. My suspicion is that this all boils down to position and momentum operator eigenbases being incompatible, but I cannot seem to prove it. – Matt Hanson Aug 17 '23 at 05:17
  • Thank you for your answer. The linked answer also helps. Unfortunately, if it is the case that the derivative is taken in a sort of classical sense and then the promotion to operators occurs, this doesn't explain OP's question of why the chain rule only works either for the position or for the momentum. I'll make an edit to further expose this problem – Lourenco Entrudo Aug 17 '23 at 12:46
  • @LourencoEntrudo I don't believe the chain only applies separately for the position and momentum, or at least that's not what is presented in the paper. The sum in the application of the chain rule is taken over all observables, not just the position or momentum observables. That was the point I was making in the first part of my answer. – d_b Aug 17 '23 at 17:53
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    I think you may be right. On page 8, the author writes "It may also be noted that q might contain operationally defined momenta, in which case spatial coordinates would then be introduced in the manner of (3.13)". Maybe that's one of the reasons the author retracted v3 of the paper and @MattHanson 's issue is void. Thank you! – Lourenco Entrudo Aug 17 '23 at 18:14
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  1. When one says that an operator $\hat{A}$ depends on $\hat{q}$ and $\hat{p}$ it is meaningless/ambiguous to view $\hat{A}$ as an actual function of $\hat{q}$ and $\hat{p}$ because the arguments do not commute: $$[\hat{q},\hat{p}]=i\hbar\hat{\bf 1}.\tag{1}$$

  2. Instead one often considers an algebra isomorphism between the algebra of operators $\hat{A},\hat{B},\ldots$ (using composition $\circ$) and an algebra of symbols $A,B,\ldots $ (which are functions on phase space equipped with a corresponding star product $\star$).

    The most common symbol is the Weyl/symmetric symbol, cf. e.g. this Phys.SE post. The corresponding star product $\star$ is the Groenewold-Moyal star product.

  3. When a symbols $A$ is differential function, it makes mathematical sense to consider derivatives $$ \frac{\partial A}{\partial q}, \quad \frac{\partial A}{\partial p}, \quad\text{etc},\tag{2} $$ cf. OP's question.

  4. The Heisenberg EOM for an operators$^1$ $$ i\hbar\frac{d\hat{A}}{dt}~=~[\hat{A},\hat{H}]~\equiv~\hat{A}\circ\hat{H}-\hat{H}\circ\hat{A} \tag{3}$$ can then be transformed into an EOM for a symbol $$ i\hbar\frac{dA}{dt}~=~[A\stackrel{\star}{,}H]~\equiv~A\star H-H\star A. \tag{4}$$

--

$^1$ We assume for simplicity no explicit time dependence.

Qmechanic
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  • I never knew there was such an isomorphism. Do you know of any reading I can do that teaches qm in this perspective? – Lourenco Entrudo Aug 18 '23 at 12:46
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    Could skim this booklet. – Cosmas Zachos Aug 18 '23 at 12:55
  • As the OP of the original question (which has been killed as a duplicate of this follow-up question), I’m not sure how any of this actually resolved me question. This might be because I don’t understand the Moyal products or the abstract geometric perspective here, but I still fail to see whether there is any relation between the variables available to a particular representation in quantum mechanics and the non-commutativity of observables. I.e. does $[\hat{x},\hat{p}_x]=i\hbar$ restrict me to using the space time variables in the position representation? Why? – Matt Hanson Aug 18 '23 at 13:35
  • @MattHanson we think that was wrong of the author to claim, and he retracted the version in which he did it. There's nothing stopping you from from using all the observables in question. See the comment I left on d_b's answer. What Qmechanic's answer does clarify for me is how phase space enters in the context of quantum mechanics, that is, via the algebra of symbols which is isomorphic to the algebra of operators on the Hilbert space. – Lourenco Entrudo Aug 18 '23 at 13:40