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It's easy to show that the time we measure is "in a different direction" from the space directions we measure. However, it's not immediately obvious to me that these directions are orthogonal.

How do we prove that any directions are orthogonal? What I came up with is the following. [For short distances/does this cause trouble?], we can use the pythagorean theorem. If I have two directions in space, I can simply travel 1 meter in each of the two directions, and then measure the distance between the two endpoints. The result is sqrt(2) meters if and only if your two directions were perpendicular.

Finding whether two directions are orthogonal

Easy!

My question is: can this method be used to prove that our concept of time is orthogonal to our concept of space?

I have an idea of where to start. We would need to move in space by 1 meter, while moving in time by 1 meter (converting time into meters using c). Then we would need to measure whether the distance traveled was sqrt(2) meters. I'm not sure I know what that would mean.

Hopefully this question makes sense; thanks for your assistance!

Qmechanic
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    Orthogonality is usually tested using some defined inner product. Functions/vectors are orthogonal if their inner product is zero. I'm not sure how you would fit your question into this framework but I thought I'd mention an additional test for orthogonality. – OSE Nov 19 '13 at 18:29
  • I think @OSE nailed it: there is no function which converts "time" into "space", just as there's no function which converts "x" into "x^2" . – Carl Witthoft Nov 19 '13 at 18:59
  • I'm a bit confused by this question. Time is a dimension of spacetime on par with the spatial dimensions. In other words, it takes four coordinates to specify an event in spacetime and thus, it is possible to find four mutually orthogonal (in the Lorentzian sense) vectors in spacetime. So yes, time is an independent direction in spacetime which means that a vector that points only in the time direction is orthogonal to a vector that points only in a spatial direction. – Alfred Centauri Nov 19 '13 at 20:50
  • Obviously "the" vector in the time dimension is orthogonal to a vector that points only in a spatial direction. The issue is that the "time" I experience by watching a clock tick (1, 2, 3, 4 seconds) might actually not be orthogonal to a space direction I choose, because the "time" I am experiencing might contain some component that is in a spatial direction. Do you see what I am getting at? – Chris Cunningham Nov 19 '13 at 23:06
  • I see now that the scalar product I'm talking about isn't positive definite, so my specific suggestion of the method to get at my answer is not good. But I feel like the question is still a reasonable question. Thanks all for your discussion! – Chris Cunningham Nov 19 '13 at 23:23
  • The concept of space and time being at right angles to each other derives from the image of a 24-hour clock on a wall in a building on the surface of a rotating planet: When the clock's hour hand has finished one complete rotation, so has the planet. The gravitational version of relativity has shown this approximately-true observation to lack general applicability: The observable curvature of time, in GR, is far greater than the observable curvature of space, as measurable temporal recurrences seem much more common than visible spatial reiterations. But that may be a biological illusion. – Edouard Jul 09 '19 at 15:23

4 Answers4

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It depends on how you define orthogonality, or, as OSE puts it in his comment, "Orthogonality is usually tested using some defined inner product." I'll expand on this a bit.

In order to mathematically answer the question

Is direction A orthogonal to direction B?

we need a definition of the terms "direction" and "orthogonal." The standard mathematical way to formalize the notion of direction is by using vectors.

For example, imagine we are traveling along some curve $\gamma$ in the plane, and let's say we are at some point $x$ in the plane, then the direction of $\gamma$ at the point $x$ can be defined by a vector tangent to $\gamma$ at the point $x$.

In particular, let's say that $\gamma$ is just the $x$-axis, then a tangent vector to the $x$-axis at every point is just $(1,0)$ (or any positive scalar multiple of this), and this defines the direction of this line at every point. Similarly, the direction of the $y$-axis at every point is defined by the vector $(0,1)$ (or any positive scalar multiple of this).

What about the notion of orthogonality? Well since vectors define directions, we might be inclined to think that orthogonality of directions should be defined in terms of associating a number to each pair of vectors, and that when this number has a special value, we call these vectors (and therefore the directions they define) orthogonal.

In practice, that's exactly how it's done. The association of a number to a given pair of vectors that tests for orthogonality is called an inner product, as mentioned in OSE's comment to your question. Given any pair of vectors $u$ and $v$, it is common to see the inner product denoted by something like $u\cdot v$, or $\langle u,v\rangle$, or something similar, depending on the context. Given an inner product, two vectors are said to be orthogonal with respect to that inner product provided their inner product is zero.

So let's take the example of directions in the plane. The standard inner product on the plane, often referred to as the "dot product" is defined as follows: \begin{align} (u_x, u_y)\cdot (v_x, v_y) = u_xu_y + v_xv_y \end{align} To test that two directions are orthogonal, we just need to take their inner product and verify that it's zero. For example, the $x$- and $y$- directions are orthogonal since \begin{align} (1,0)\cdot (0,1) = 1(0) + 0(1) = 0. \end{align}

Now let's go back to the original question of time and space being orthogonal. Let's restrict the discussion to $1+1$-dimensional spacetime with coordinates $(t,x)$ for simplicity. The direction of the time axis is given by the unit vector $(1,0)$. The direction of the space axis is given by the unit vector $(0,1)$. Calling them orthogonal now depends on the inner product we specify.

If we choose the inner product to be just like the dot product on the $x$-$y$ plane, namely if we choose \begin{align} (u_t, u_x)\cdot (v_t, v_x) = u_tv_t + u_xv_x, \end{align} then yes, time and space are orthogonal with respect to this product.

However, the physical interpretation and significance of applying this inner product to spacetime is murky. The standard inner product on the plane is motivated by the fact that it comports with the usual notion of distance. In particular, if two vectors are orthogonal with respect to this inner product, then the sum of the square of their lengths agrees with the independently defined notion of the Euclidean distance between their endpoints.

In the case of spacetime, this notion of distance isn't particularly useful or appropriate. There is, however a different notion of "distance" derived from a scalar product (which is not strictly speaking an inner product since it's not positive definite) defined by \begin{align} (u_t, u_x)\cdot (v_t, v_x) = -u_tv_t + u_xv_x. \end{align} Unfortunately, since this scalar product is not an inner product, the notion of orthogonality is rather strained. But if you insist on still calling vectors orthogonal if their scalar product with each other is zero, then the $x$ and $t$ directions are still orthogonal relative to this product.

joshphysics
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  • Of course, light-like vectors are "orthogonal" to themselves! – lionelbrits Nov 19 '13 at 21:27
  • Obviously there is a time direction that is in the direction (1, 0), and when I write (t, x) for spacetime I've already decided that. And further it's clear that the scalar product (even though it isn't an inner product) is 0 when I use (1,0) and (0,1).

    In this situation, my question is -- how can I convince myself that the time that I am measuring/experiencing is in the direction (1, 0)? It's easy for me to convince myself that it has a component in the t-direction, but when a second ticks by on my clock, mightn't this measurement be in the direction (1, 3)?

    – Chris Cunningham Nov 19 '13 at 23:12
  • How do I convince myself that the time I am familiar with is really in a direction that is orthogonal (in the Lorentzian sense) to all of my space vectors? – Chris Cunningham Nov 19 '13 at 23:14
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    @ChrisCunningham If I'm understanding your question correctly, that's not really something you can somehow prove mathematically. It's simply part of the model of SR that if you're at rest relative to a clock, then you model the time that it measures as the first coordinate of Minkowski space. Once you assume this model, what you can show by a Lorentz transformation is that from your perspective, the time axis of a clock carried by an observer that is moving relative to you is at an "angle" which is why you see time axes on spacetime diagrams tilted for moving observers. – joshphysics Nov 19 '13 at 23:31
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How do we prove that any directions are orthogonal? [...] we can use the pythagorean theorem.

This involves of course a definition of (how to measure or compare) "angle(s)" in the first place; such that one may comprehend statements about (distinct) angles being "equal" (or else: "not equal") for instance in Euclid's 4th axiom (on "right angles") or in Hilbert's "4th axiom of congruence" (concerning "angles" in general).

In a flat metric space, a suitable definition of an
"angle at point $B$, between directions $\vec{BA}$ and $\vec{BC}$", in terms of distance ratios between points $A$, $B$ and $C$, is:

$ \angle[ ABC ] := \text{ ArcSin } \! \! \! \left[ \frac{\Large 1}{\Large 2} \sqrt{ 2 + 2 \left(\frac{AC}{AB}\right)^2 + 2 \left(\frac{AC}{BC}\right)^2 - \left(\frac{AB}{BC}\right)^2 - \left(\frac{BC}{AB}\right)^2 - \left(\frac{AC}{AB}\right)^2 \left(\frac{AC}{BC}\right)^2 } \, \right] $.

More generally, one may define

$ \angle[ ABC ] := \text{ Limit }{ \! \! }_{\{ F, G \}} \! \huge[ $
$ {\Large \{ } \left( \frac{BF}{AB} \right) \rightarrow 0, \left( \frac{BG}{BC} \right) \rightarrow 0, $
$ 2 + 2 \left(\frac{AB}{AF}\right)^2 + 2 \left(\frac{AB}{BF}\right)^2 - \left(\frac{AF}{BF}\right)^2 - \left(\frac{BF}{AF}\right)^2 - \left(\frac{AB}{AF}\right)^2 \left(\frac{AB}{BF}\right)^2 \rightarrow 0, $ $ 2 + 2 \left(\frac{BC}{BG}\right)^2 + 2 \left(\frac{BC}{GC}\right)^2 - \left(\frac{BG}{GC}\right)^2 - \left(\frac{GC}{BG}\right)^2 - \left(\frac{BC}{BG}\right)^2 \left(\frac{BC}{BC}\right)^2 \rightarrow 0 \Large\} \Large[ $ $ \text{ ArcSin } \! \! \! \left[ \frac{\Large 1}{\Large 2} \sqrt{ 2 + 2 \left(\frac{FG}{BF}\right)^2 + 2 \left(\frac{FG}{BG}\right)^2 - \left(\frac{BF}{BG}\right)^2 - \left(\frac{BG}{BF}\right)^2 - \left(\frac{FG}{BF}\right)^2 \left(\frac{FG}{BG}\right)^2 } \, \right] \Large] \huge] $.

In the case of a flat metric space, this lends itself to defining a
"scalar product between vectors $\vec{BA}$ and $\vec{BC}$" as

$ \langle \vec{BA}, \vec{BC} \rangle :=$
$ AB \, \, BC \, \, {\text{ Cos }} \! \! {\large[} \, \angle[ ABC ] \, {\large]} = $
$ AB \, \, BC \, \, \sqrt{ 1 - \frac{\Large 1}{\Large 4} \left( 2 + 2 \left( \frac{AC}{AB} \right)^2 + 2 \left(\frac{AC}{BC}\right)^2 - \left(\frac{AB}{BC}\right)^2 - \left(\frac{BC}{AB}\right)^2 - \left(\frac{AC}{AB}\right)^2 \left(\frac{AC}{BC}\right)^2 \right) } = $ $ AB \, \, BC \, \, \frac{\Large 1}{\Large 2} \sqrt{ 2 - 2 \left( \frac{AC}{AB} \right)^2 - 2 \left(\frac{AC}{BC}\right)^2 + \left(\frac{AB}{BC}\right)^2 + \left(\frac{BC}{AB}\right)^2 + \left(\frac{AC}{AB}\right)^2 \left(\frac{AC}{BC}\right)^2 } = $
$ AB \, \, BC \, \, \frac{\Large 1}{\Large 2} \sqrt{ 1 + \left(\frac{BC}{AB}\right)^2 - \left(\frac{AC}{AB}\right)^2 } \sqrt{ 1 + \left(\frac{AB}{BC}\right)^2 - \left(\frac{AC}{BC}\right)^2 } = $
$ \frac{\Large 1}{\Large 2} \left( AB^2 + BC^2 - AC^2 \right) $,

where

$ \langle \vec{BA}, \vec{BA} \rangle := AB^2$, and so on.

Easy! My question is:
can this method be used to prove that our concept of time is orthogonal to our concept of space?

This method can be used for expressing relations between "spacelike" and "timelike" or "lightlike" vectors (in a suitably supplemented flat space). It can be made to match the assignment of "intervals" $s$: writing

$ \langle \vec{BA}, \vec{BA} \rangle = \langle \vec{AB}, \vec{AB} \rangle := s_{AB}^2$,

where

$ s_{AQ}^2 = 0 $ for vector $\vec{AQ}$ lightlike, $ s_{BQ}^2 \lt 0 $ for vector $\vec{BQ}$ timelike, and

$ s_{AB}^2 = -s_{BQ}^2 $ for the "magnitude square" of corresponding spacelike vector $\vec{AB}$, such that in this case indeed

$ \langle \vec{BA}, \vec{BQ} \rangle = \frac{\Large 1}{\Large 2} \left( AB^2 + BQ^2 - AQ^2 \right) = \frac{\Large 1}{\Large 2} \left( s_{AB}^2 + s_{BQ}^2 + 0 \right) = 0 $

as is characteristic of orthogonal vectors.

user12262
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  • Another wrinkle is if we are talking Euclidean space or non-Eculidean spacetime. – user6972 Nov 24 '13 at 03:29
  • user6972: A "wrinkle" is also the convention (at least acc. to the WP article) to call "spacetime" necessarily a "manifold". Accordingly, the flat case would be called "Minkowski space", and the general (possibly curved) case "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudo-Riemannian_manifold#Lorentzian_manifold". However, since there was no explicit mentioning of such "manifolds" in the original question, I was trying to make the point of answering in terms of "flat metric space" or "a suitably supplemented flat space" (for which I don't know another "technical term" yet, unfortunately). – user12262 Nov 24 '13 at 07:56
  • My comment was mostly in jest ;-) Orthogonal has many different meanings when talking about spacetime. – user6972 Nov 24 '13 at 18:31
  • user6972: "My comment was mostly in jest" -- Then, on top of my previous comment, let me point out in all seriousness that the definition of "angle" as a certain limit (shown in my answer above) is (also) applicable to curved metric space (or "Euclidean space"); and that I'd really be grateful to learn how to correctly refer to a generalized metric space in which the condition of "non-negativity" is dropped and the "triangle inequality" is only required for non-negative triples. – user12262 Nov 24 '13 at 20:08
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    user6972: "Orthogonal has many different meanings when talking about spacetime." -- A shame that the OP didn't ask more explicitly and incisively about that. One could then point out (in an answer), that "linear independence" doesn't generally apply to spacelike vs. timelike vectors: there are for instance triples $\vec{AB} + \vec{BC} + \vec{CA} == \vec{AA}$ where $\vec{AB}$ and $\vec{BC}$ are spacelike while $\vec{CA}$ is timelike (and $\vec{AA}$ is the null vector). Or one could discuss conical order ... – user12262 Nov 24 '13 at 20:09
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From my answer to Space time diagrams : Length contraction

Here's how Minkowski describes this...

From Minkowski's "Space and Time"...

We decompose any vector, such as that from O to x, y, z, t into four components x, y, z, t. If the directions of two vectors are, respectively, that of a radius vector OR from O to one of the surfaces ∓F = 1, and that of a tangent RS at the point R on the same surface, the vectors are called normal to each other. Accordingly, $$c^2tt_1 − xx_1 − yy_1 − zz_1 = 0$$ is the condition for the vectors with components x, y, z, t and $x_1$, $y_1$, $z_1$, $t_1$ to be normal to each other.

In other words,
locate the intersection of an observer's 4-velocity with the unit-hyperbola (the Minkowski circle) centered at the tail of the observer's 4-velocity.

The tangent line to that hyperbola is Minkowski-perpendicular to that observer's 4-velocity. That observer's x-axis is drawn through the tail of her 4-velocity, parallel to that tangent line.


The "intuition" to have is that
the tangent to the "circle" in that geometry
is
orthogonal to the radius vector.


To play with this idea, visit my
robphy's spacetime diagrammer for relativity v.8e-2021 (time upward)
https://www.desmos.com/calculator/emqe6uyzha
Play with the E-slider to go from Minkowski (E=+1), Galilean (E=0), and Euclidean (E=-1).

(See my answer in Meaning of simultaneity in special relativity for more info.)

robphy-Desmos-spacetimeDiagrammer-M robphy-Desmos-spacetimeDiagrammer-G robphy-Desmos-spacetimeDiagrammer-E

robphy
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"Can we show that time is orthogonal to space?" Yes, but not by mathematics since the latter depends upon not differentiating as to how we 'register' space and time. Even (inertial) stationary rest mass illustrates this. You measure rest mass space position by the location it OCCUPIES relative to some reference inertial mass. BUT, you measure the time 'location' of this mass by a perception-measurement event. [The inertial rest mass has no defined time location; only events have such.] This is Ontology 101; it does not require Mathematics 801. You measure space and time totally differently because rest mass resides in (occupies) only one dimension giving it no defined location in the other [time] dimension. Your time measure/location of the mass is orthogonal, via an EVENT. Residing (occupying-existing) at a location and event (occurring) location are different. [but no one pays attention to this :-( ]