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I am dissatisfied with the presentation (not to say "definition") of "arc length", in its "Generalization to (pseudo-)Riemannian manifolds", as given in Wikipedia. (Who isn't?. But I'll sketch it here as a starting point anyways.) Namely:

[arc] length of curve $\gamma$ as $$\ell[~\gamma~] := \int_0^1 dt~\sqrt{\pm~g[~\gamma'[~t~],\gamma'[~t~]~]},$$

where [...] the sign ["$\pm$"] in the square root is chosen once for a given curve, to ensure that the square root is a real number.

In contrast, more useful I find the following definition variant (which is broadly similar to the above, but different in some decisive details): $$\int_0^1 dt~(\pm)[~t~]~\lvert\sqrt{(\pm)[~t~]~g[~\gamma'[~t~],\gamma'[~t~]~]}~\rvert,$$ where the sign "$\pm$" is chosen separately for each individual value $t$,
or in other words, the sign "$(\pm)[~t~]$" is chosen as a function of "the variable $t$",
to ensure that the square root is a real number for each individual value $t$
(and with all other symbols the same as in the Wikipedia presentation above).

Is this latter definition variant already known by some particular name and notation in the literature ?

And vice versa: Has the name "signed arc length" and/or the symbol "$s[~\gamma~]$" been used in any other sense (inconsistent with this latter definition variant); at least within the context of discussing pseudo-Riemannian manifolds ?

Note on notation:

The symbol "$(\pm)[~t~]$" for denoting "the appropriate sign as a function of the variable $t$" has been used above in order to mimic the symbol "$\pm$" which appears (presently) in the Wikipedia article. A more explicit and perhaps more established notation for this function would be "$\text{sgn}[~g[~\gamma'[~t~],\gamma'[~t~]~]~]$".

Documentation of prior research (in response to a deleted answer):

As of recently, Google searches for "signed arc length" or "signed arclength" seem to yield fewer than 100 distinct results, several of which even dealing with general relativity (and hence with spacetime, and/or pseudo-Riemannian manifolds as models of spacetime), but none of them (except this PSE question) presenting in this context anything resembling the sought particular expression.*

My attempts at a web search for this particular expression didn't seem to bring up any relevant results either; even considering several different choices of notation.

(*: In order to make this determination I've been trying to match symbols or items of the given notations of the documents I had found to the following notions (here in my specific, but generally of course arbitrary notation):

  • spacetime, as set of events $\mathcal S$,

  • a strictly ordered subset of spacetime, $\Gamma \subset \mathcal S$, and

  • two signed measures $\mu_s$ and $\mu_g$ for which

$$\forall x \in \Gamma : \lim_{ A \rightarrow x }~\left( |~\mu_s[~A~]~| ~ \mu_s[~A~] - \mu_g[~A~] \right) = 0,$$

  • or at least one signed measure $\mu_s$ together with real numbers $g[~x, \Gamma, \mathcal S~]$ which are not necessarily positive, for which

$$\forall x \in \Gamma : \lim_{ A \rightarrow x }~\left( |~\mu_s[~A~]~| ~ \mu_s[~A~] \right) = g$$ ).

user12262
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3 Answers3

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The "signed arc-length" is not used in relativity and I give reasons why. You are free to call and denote it in any way you like.

$s$ and $\ell$ are interchangeably used to denote arc-length of space-like paths $g(\gamma',\gamma')>0$ in relativity and $\tau[\gamma]$ is used for "proper time" of $g(\gamma',\gamma')<0$ time-like paths but the notation is not entirely strict and if you write your text carefully, you should reach no collision.


To start the explanation, one should ask: what is an arc length good for? The answer is

  1. Measuring distances between two points
  2. Measuring the change in proper time of an observer passing through two events
  3. As a Lagrangian giving a variational principle

There is no usual sense in which 1. and 2. could have a varying signature of $g(\gamma',\gamma')$. But if you want to extend beyond that, I feel it most natural to consider a different formalism: take ${\rm d}s = \sqrt{g(\gamma'(p),\gamma'(p))}{\rm d}p$ for any curve, be it time-like or space-like. This will be a relativistic invariant, the imaginary part will give you the proper-time change of an observer on the curve and the real part will give you the "superluminal shift", the distance which could not have been traveled by a physical observer. This way you do not need to worry about the signs and the real and imaginary part clearly separate the physical meaning of the contributions.

The problem with the "signed arc-length" also is that it is much more degenerate than the "usual arc-length". The "usual arc-length" $\sqrt{g(\gamma',\gamma')}$ demi-definitely grows in the positive imaginary direction or the positive real direction for every additional piece of the curve (semi-definitely because there is the possibility of $\sqrt{g(\gamma',\gamma')}=0$). On the other hand, the "signed arc-length" allows for a plethora of curves which do not increment the arc-length by taking a time-like piece $\sqrt{g(\gamma',\gamma')}<0$ and compensating it with a space-like piece $\sqrt{g(\gamma',\gamma')}>0$. This means that the unique characterization of a null-geodesic or a path followed by a lightray $\ell(\gamma)=0$ is suddenly smeared out somewhere in $s[\gamma]=0$.

As for 3., the variational principle does not really care what is the phase of the Lagrangian and you can use either your own formalism or the one I propose - the resulting geodesics will be the same. Do note that the extremum of the action will always be on a geodesic with one fixed sign of $g(\gamma',\gamma')$.


However, the fact is that in relativity there is a lot of "fudge" in the formalism we use. For instance, take the function $$\psi(x) = \exp(-\frac{1}{(x-x_1)^2} -\frac{1}{(x-x_2)^2}),\, x \in (x_1,x_2),\, \psi(x)=0 \; \rm otherwise$$ and make a coordinate transform $x \to x'=x + \psi(x)$ (note that $\psi(x)$ is $C^\infty$ and so is the transform). This will change the metric and every object inside the interval $x \in (x_1,x_2)$ but not the physics. This is due to diffeomorphism invariance.

I.e. the formal objects of relativity such as coordinate curves $\gamma^\mu(p)$ coordinates $x^\mu$ or even the metric $g^{\mu \nu}$ are not the core of the "physics". So what is? When you get down to it, you realize that the core of physics is the sum of time-like and null geodesics and their relations - which can be locally described by space-like geodesics.

You can now see that non-geodesics are a part of the "fudge" which is only a formal tool to get to the "core". The curious curves you propose cannot be geodesics, hence they are a part of the non-physical fudge - at least from a strictly relativist point of view. This means that no major relativist textbook spends any time to define this unnecessarily complicated convention because it has no physical significance.


The only possible context where I can think of the physical relevance of meddling with signs and phases of the arc-length is the Path integral quantization of a relativistic particle. There you have the propagator of a free particle given as a path integral $$\int \mathcal{D}[\gamma] \exp(i\int \sqrt{-g(\gamma',\gamma')} {\rm d}p)$$ and the phase of the argument of the exponential most certainly matters. Even though you might be interested only in physical particles with time-like propagation, the propagator obtained from the non-path-integral relativistic quantum mechanics is non-zero even for space-like separations and you thus should consider even (partly) space-like paths.

This is a final argument against the convention you propose which I am too lazy to put in a completely rigorous derivation: The quantum propagator is non-zero for space-like separations, but exponentially decaying. If $S[\gamma]=\int \sqrt{-g(...)} {\rm d}p$ has a positive imaginary part, $e^{iS}$ is exponentially small. That is, the path integral quantization will give the correct result when the space-like path has a positive imaginary part. Thus, the correct sign convention is to use $L = \sqrt{-g(...)}$ ($-+++$ signature of the metric) without any sign modifications.


I can think of beyond-standard theories which could use the convention you propose to formulate new physics in a legitimate way. For instance, your convention defines an "average space/time-likeness" of the trajectory which could be used in Lorentz-violating theories.

But I do not know about any beyond-standard theory using this formalism and the short review I give shows that this is certainly not a useful (and thus used) convention in standard theoretical physics.

Void
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  • Void: "no major relativist textbook spends any time to define this unnecessarily complicated convention" -- That's addressing my question; +1. "The curious curves [$\gamma_c$] you propose cannot be geodesics" -- Well, how did you determine that?? From some specific textbook, perhaps? ... (You see, I wonder if your answer is self-consistent. Obviously, OTOH, the "signed arc length" proposed above is "non-monotonic" wrt. the integration variable of any $\gamma_c$.) p.s. On issues which seem less directly relevant: [to be continued] – user12262 Feb 23 '15 at 18:27
  • Void: "phys. relevance of meddling with signs and phases of the arc-length [in] Path integral quantization [...] If $S[\gamma]=\int\sqrt{-g(...)}{\rm d}p$ has a positive imaginary part, [then ...] -- Oh, you mean expressing the propagator of a free particle as $$ \int \mathcal D[~\gamma~]~{\rm Exp}[~\left(\frac{(\pm)[~p~]-1}{2} + i~\frac{(\pm)[~p~]+1}{2}\right)~\int {\rm d}p~|~\sqrt{(\pm)[~p~]~g(...)}~|~]$$ ? That's something else, isn't it ... "the core of physics is [...] time-like and null geodesics and their relations" -- Fair point; but see above. "$\psi(x)$ [...]" -- Nod to Cauchy. – user12262 Feb 23 '15 at 18:37
  • "Curious curves cannot be geodesics": Well, it's always hard to guess the asker's background in the subject but I assumed you understand the way the variational principle $S=\int L {\rm d}p, \delta S=0$ leads to Euler-Lagrange equation which in this case is the second order geodesic equation. This equation can be shown to preserve the norm of the tangent to the curve $g(\gamma',\gamma')$. That is, $g(\gamma',\gamma')$ not only has a constant sign along a geodesic but also a constant value. – Void Feb 23 '15 at 20:44
  • Rewriting the propagator: Well, yes, but the propagator is actually $$\int \mathcal{D}[\gamma] \exp(iS[\gamma])$$ where $S[\gamma] = \int L {\rm d}p$. You can take $L=(...+i...)|\sqrt{(\pm)[p] g(...)}|$ but that is just equal to $L=\sqrt{-g(...)}$. I am not saying you cannot use the convention you propose, just that it's not particularly useful given that you have to introduce new symbols etc. – Void Feb 23 '15 at 20:54
  • Void: "the var. principle $S=\int L{\rm d}p, \delta S=0$ leads to Euler-Lagrange equation which in this case [...]" -- Does it?, in case of "curious curves $\gamma_c$ (defined in comments following 0celo7's answer), with $L := \sqrt{g(...)}$, and/or as $\ell$ in the Wikipedia article? (I'd have to brush up my calculus ...) "I am not saying you cannot use the convention you propose" -- And I'm just asking whether it's known by some name. Do you suggest that $$\sqrt{-1}:=+i,\text{ not }-!i$$ and $$\sqrt{1}:=1,\text{ not }-!!1$$are conventions? – user12262 Feb 23 '15 at 21:22
  • Void -- To express my point concisely: The "variational principle" which is necessarily based on some sort/convention of "arc length" leads to the Euler-Lagrange "second order geodesic equation" either in the strictly Riemannian case, but in the pseudo-Riemannian case apparently only for the "$-$" and "$0$" cases. (Avoiding "leading terminology".) Of course you're free to apply these equations "just so", anyways. But if your answer/argument boils down to: "Therefore no-one relevant before ever bothered to think about curious/mixed curves in terms of arclength" it won't get the bounty. – user12262 Feb 24 '15 at 06:28
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    I am not entirely sure what we are currently talking about. Here is a link detailing the derivation of Euler-Lagrange equations. The geodesic equation applies in the case of any sign of $g(\gamma',\gamma')$, and makes the sign and value constant. To summarize my answer to your question: "The 'signed arc-length' is not used in relativity and I give reasons why. You are free to call and denote it in any way you like." I think I will actually add this to the answer. – Void Feb 24 '15 at 09:15
  • Void -- Re: Your recent edits: "The "signed arc-length" [...] You are free to call and denote it in any way you like." -- That's a kind suggestion; but it still might turn out to be premature, subject to more thorough research. Clearly, being able to point out specific instances of prior use and terminology would at least appear more authorative. So it seems fair/best to me if the bounty attached to my question could be held in escrow until priority might be claimed and established, if at all. p.s. On issues which seem less directly relevant: [to be continued] – user12262 Feb 24 '15 at 21:56
  • Void: "The "usual arc-length" $\sqrt{g(\gamma',\gamma')}$ [...]" -- I'll presume that's supposed to be rather: "$\int_{\gamma}~{\rm d}p~\sqrt{g[...]}$" -- If so: Wow!, only now it dawns on me that by "usual arc-length (in generalization to pseudo-Riemannian and specificly to Lorentzian manifolds)" you don't mean the Wikipedia "arc length" presentation shown above either! (That's remarkable by itself.) "The "usual arc-length" [semi]-definitely grows in the positive imaginary direction or the positive real direction for every additional piece of the curve" -- Oh!, [... to be continued] – user12262 Feb 24 '15 at 22:17
  • Void: "The "usual arc-length" [...] in the positive imaginary direction or the positive real direction" -- Oh!, then what you call "usual arc-length" is explicitly (and "transparent to any conventions"): $$\int_{\gamma}~{\rm d}p~\left(\frac{1+(\pm)[~p~]}{2} + i~\frac{1-(\pm)[~p~]}{2}\right)~|\sqrt{~(\pm)[~p~]~g[...]}~|,$$ where $i$ is to be addressed as "(the) positive imaginary unit", right? And (per WP link) you claim that this "complex(ified) arc length" could yield a (positive) imaginary number as "stationary value" for any two suitable given "endpoints" ?? I'm skeptical ... – user12262 Feb 24 '15 at 22:26
  • p.s. I just realized the "propagator integral" in my above comment was incorrect. It should have been: $$ \int \mathcal D[~\gamma~]~{\rm Exp}[~\int {\rm d}p~\left(\frac{(\pm)[~p~]-1}{2} + i~\frac{(\pm)[~p~]+1}{2}\right)~|~\sqrt{~(\pm)[~p~]~g(...)}~|~]$$ p.p.s. To name one argument "pro signed arc length", FWIW: it goes nicely with any particular sign convention of spacetime intervals. – user12262 Feb 24 '15 at 22:28
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I have never seen that second definition before. The first definition is standard. For a Riemannian manifold the metric tensor is positive definite, that is $$g(u,u)>0\quad\forall u\ne0$$ We have the standard relation (tensor product omitted) $$\mathrm{d}s^2=g_{ij}\mathrm{d}x^i \mathrm{d}x^j$$ Let $t\in\mathbb{R}$ be a curve parameter and $\gamma:[0,1]\rightarrow M$ be a curve. Then the functional $$\ell[\gamma]=\int_\gamma \mathrm{d}s=\int_0^1\sqrt{g(\dot\gamma,\dot\gamma)}\,\mathrm{d}t$$ defines arc length. For $M$ a physical spacetime, we no longer have a positive definite metric. It is simple to check that $g(\dot\gamma,\dot\gamma)<0$ for a timelike curve in $(-++\,+)$. Thus we require a minus in the square root: $$\ell[\gamma]=\int\sqrt{-g(\dot\gamma,\dot\gamma)}\,\mathrm{d}\tau$$ I see no reason to change this definition. What purpose would an overall sign serve?

Ryan Unger
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  • Ocelo7: "[...] that $g(\dot\gamma,\dot\gamma)<0$ for a timelike curve in $(-+++)$." -- OK. So how about curves $$\gamma_c : [0, 1] \rightarrow M,$$ (index "$c$ for "curious") for which $$\exists~ a, b \in [0, 1] \text{ such that } g(\dot\gamma_c[~a~],\dot\gamma_c[~a~])<0, \text{ while } g(\dot\gamma_c[~b~],\dot\gamma_c[~b~])>0$$ ?? Are there such "curves $\gamma_c$" at all? ... "What purpose would an overall sign serve?" -- The (resulting) overall sign would seem to serve a similar purpose as any particular "sign convention", such as "$(-+++)$". What exactly is the purpose of that? – user12262 Feb 22 '15 at 07:22
  • p.s. Ocelo7: "I have never seen that second definition before." -- That was directly addressing my question (or at least part of it); +1. – user12262 Feb 22 '15 at 07:30
  • @user12262: What would be the purpose for defining arc length for such curves? – MBN Feb 22 '15 at 11:57
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    @user12262 A curve cannot switch from being timelike to spacelike. – Ryan Unger Feb 22 '15 at 13:08
  • @MBN: "What would be the purpose for defining arc length for such curves [i.e. presumably: such as any "curious curve $\gamma_c$" described above] ?" -- Well, foremost, in mathematical physics: If there is no proof (yet) that it cannot be done, then let's try to do it. Some incidental insights or applications might thereby be gained, too: for instance, an argument why such curves cannot be called "straight". (p.s. It seems that you accept that "objects" such as $\gamma_c$ are legitimately being called "curves" to begin with ...) – user12262 Feb 22 '15 at 13:12
  • @user12262 There is no reason to make length negative. You can introduce any quantity you want, this is a free country. However, it should either a) simplify something previous or b) provide insight. In this case, you don't achieve either. – Ryan Unger Feb 22 '15 at 13:14
  • 0celo7: "A curve cannot switch from being timelike to spacelike." -- This assertion comes as a surprise to me. (And btw., I just replied to @MBN's comment before noticing yours.) IMHO this deserves being asked as a separate question (at PSE) which I'll be happy to prepare later today. – user12262 Feb 22 '15 at 13:19
  • @user12262 I can tell you the answer you'll get: special relativity. – Ryan Unger Feb 22 '15 at 13:20
  • @0celo7: You mean a geodesic cannot switch from timelike to spacelike. An arbitrary curve can. – MBN Feb 22 '15 at 13:52
  • @MBN True. A physical trajectory, cannot, however. I thought this is was we were talking about. – Ryan Unger Feb 22 '15 at 14:57
  • 0celo7: "@MBN [An arbitrary curve can ... switch from timelike to spacelike.] True." -- So: Do we agree that the "Wikipedia prescription: the sign in the square root is chosen once for a given curve" does not provide a general and satisfactory definition of "arc length"? Then I'd be surprised/shocked if others had not arrived at this conclusion before. Thus I ask: Is there an established name and notation for the particular "solution to the problem" I described? (Else let's use what I made up.) – user12262 Feb 22 '15 at 15:22
  • @user12262 I think your main confusion lies in the words 'arc length'. [the following is my own interpretation] As is clear from the animation on top of the wikipedia page, the arc length in this article is supposed to represent the generalized notion of 'distance' i.e. it will be a geodesic, the generalization of a straight line. In such cases, your proposal certainly can never happen. I'm not entirely sure if it can ever happen; I think it may be a good question for [math.se] (it will preobably not be physical, since we care mainly about geodesics). – Danu Feb 22 '15 at 16:06
  • @Danu: "As is clear from the animation on top of the wikipedia page [...]" -- Are you suggesting that (the WP page claims that) every "arc" (or "curve") is straight, or geodesic? (Surely not.) Then: Are you suggesting that (the WP page claims that) for each value of "arc length" of a given "arc/curve" it should be possible to imagine a "straight/geodesic curve" of equal "arc length" value? (That's arguably accomplished by "my proposal", while the quoted "WP presentation" clearly fails in general.) Or what else are you suggesting, specificly? ... [to be continued] – user12262 Feb 22 '15 at 17:18
  • @Danu: "we [physicists] care mainly about geodesics" -- That's missing a (my) main point of interest: We physicists care foremost about how to find out whether any given set of events is (the image of) a geodesic, or not. Only subsequently we care mainly about geodesics. (Or actually: we only might; we may, or may not.) Therefore I'd certainly not be happy to (be) migrate(d) away from PSE. (Is there nevertheless a possibiliy to bring my question to the attention of a broader audience which is possibly more knowledgeable of the relevant literature? Sure: vote it up! ;) ... – user12262 Feb 22 '15 at 17:27
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I don't remember having seen the specific expression of the proposed "signed arc length" either (anywhere but related to the OP question), nor anything resembling (1) the more abstract expression for determining the sought resemblance.

For naming this proposed functional from the set of curves (or rather, arcs) into the set of real numbers (incl. $\mathbb R_{-}$) the choice "signed arc length" seems reasonable, but not very specific (2).

However I can think of several names which on first sight may seem reasonable and more evocative, but which refer(3) instead to (largely) inapplicable notions; for instance:

  • not "Lorentzian arc length", not "sub-Lorentzian arc length", not even "signed Lorentzian (arc) length";

  • not "(Synge's) World (arc) function", not "Minkowski arc length";

  • not "pseudo-Riemannian arc length";

even though, on the other hand, the definition of "pseudo-(arc)-length", (eq. 11.59) itself may well allow an interpretation which includes the proposed functional.

But if relying on other's interpretation is not an option then, as far as I know, it remains only to call the (definition, and any accordingly determined value) of the proposed functional "proper arc length".

user12262
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  • user12262: If this answer would be accepted as satisfactory, and I thereby might gain some number of reputation points, then I hereby undertake: $\hskip 23em$ If a substantive claim were being submitted here as an answer afterwards by someone else ("the claimant"), then I'll ask a follow-up question about notation and terminology of such a possible claim which should be easy for the claimant to answer acceptably, and with a bounty attached equal to the number of reputation points I would have gained (rounded up, if applicable, to the next multiple of 50). – user12262 Feb 27 '15 at 17:02
  • user12262: ""pseudo-(arc)-length", (eq. 11.59) itself" -- Would you please sketch more explicitly which interpretation might be given to (eq. 11.59) of M. Grinfeld, "Math. Tools for Physicists" to include the proposed functional? – user12262 Feb 27 '15 at 17:04
  • (eq. 11.59) "Math. Tools f. Phys." reads: $$(\hat x')^T(x-\hat x)+(\hat\mu')^T(\mu-\hat\mu)=\Delta,$$ where $\hat x$, $\hat\mu$ are previous solutions, and $()'$ denotes diff. wrt. arc length. Then $$x-\hat x:=\int_{t[~\hat x~]}^{t[~x~]} {\rm d}s\text{ with } {\rm d}s=\left{\begin{array}~ \sqrt{g}{\rm~d}t\text{ if }g\ge 0\cr\text{else }0\end{array}\right},$$ $$\mu-\hat\mu:=\int_{t[~\hat\mu~]}^{t[~\mu~]}{\rm d}s\text{ with }{\rm d}s=\left{\begin{array}~ -\sqrt{-g}{\rm~d}t\text{ if }g\le 0\cr\text{else }0\end{array}\right},$$ $$()':= \frac{d}{d\Delta}()$$ gives the sought funct. as $\Delta$. – user12262 Feb 27 '15 at 21:21