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The answer by John Rennie here mentions that :

...spacetime is not a thing - it is a mathematical construction.

There have been studies which have detected gravitational waves from black holes which seems to suggest that spacetime really should be thought of as something physical and real instead of merely a mathematical construct to make sense of phenomena.

Is this conclusion correct? I would appreciate some discussion/thoughts towards this issue which can provide more insight or possible thought provoking avenues which might be missed at a first glance.

Related question but it doesn't discuss things from the perspective of the now known existence of gravitational waves.

Dale
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    Which accepted answer? – Qmechanic Dec 22 '20 at 23:21
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    Tip: Since the order of answers could change in the future it is recommended not to refer to an answer as 'the accepted answer'. – Qmechanic Dec 22 '20 at 23:23
  • @Qmechanic I see. Thanks for the tip. – self.grassmanian Dec 22 '20 at 23:47
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    Are quantum fields and their quanta “real”? Is anything “real”? What is “real” even supposed to mean in modern physics? I don’t consider your question to have anything to do with physics. It is 100% metaphysics. – G. Smith Dec 23 '20 at 01:36
  • i too feel spacetime to be a mathematical construction –  Dec 23 '20 at 03:19
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    "according to the general theory of relativity space is endowed with physical qualities; in this sense, therefore, there exists an ether. According to the general theory of relativity space without ether is unthinkable" - Albert Einstein, 1920 – safesphere Dec 23 '20 at 06:32
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    I would appreciate some discussion/thoughts This is not a discussion-type forum. On Physics SE people ask (ideally) well focused questions requiring a specific answer and (in order to allow people to vote on which answer is best) should have an identifiable "best" criteria - e.g. explain the conceptual issue well and clearly. Open ended discussions do not fit here. – StephenG - Help Ukraine Dec 23 '20 at 07:17
  • @safesphere Can you kindly include the reference for the quote? – self.grassmanian Dec 23 '20 at 09:29
  • @StephenG Noted – self.grassmanian Dec 23 '20 at 09:29
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    Here's the question: What is real anyway? – freakish Dec 23 '20 at 09:51
  • @freakish As a simplistic approach : either something which can be measured or whose effect can be measured in an experiment (hence the ref to the GW detection experiment). Anyways, I think the answer by Andrew Steane captures many aspects one might want to understand. – self.grassmanian Dec 23 '20 at 10:09
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    @self.grassmanian are you saying that you can't measure how spacetime affects... everything? It seems to be the most real thing there is according to that approach. Alternatively, is velocity real? It is just a number or a vector or maybe a function. Either way a purely mathematical thing. But it affects lots of things. – freakish Dec 23 '20 at 12:14
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    This is not a question about "metaphysics". This has a very similar flavor to the question of as to whether electric and magnetic fields are real or just mathematical constructs. As far as I understand, there is legitimate disagreement on this point in the context of QFT but in the context of classical electrodynamics, there is a clear answer here: they are real. Without them being real, you cannot restore locality or even momentum conservation, etc. But, at a time in history, there was a real debate about this even in the context of classical electrodynamics. –  Dec 23 '20 at 15:14
  • Similarly, as far as I understand, the ontological status of spacetime is debatable in the context of our current understanding of GR, but that doesn't make the question a metaphysical question. One can still close it as opinion-based IMO. But it is a question about physics, not metaphysics. –  Dec 23 '20 at 15:16
  • oscillating masses emit gravitomagnetic waves for the same reasons that oscillating charges emit electromagnetic waves. It is the expected behavior. – R. Emery Dec 23 '20 at 16:11
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    @self.grassmanian See the concluding paragraph: https://mathshistory.st-andrews.ac.uk/Extras/Einstein_ether/ – safesphere Dec 23 '20 at 18:49

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This question leads us quite quickly to the metaphysical question of what it is that distinguishes physics from pure mathematics. That question is quite subtle so I do not think you will find a complete consensus, among experts, on the answer to your question.

To understand physics generally, it becomes more and more useful, as you progress to more subtle areas, to make clear in your mind the distinction between the mathematical abstractions, such as number, vector, tensor, Hilbert space, quantum amplitude, and the physical things such as bricks, cats, light pulses, planets, electrons, and their physical properties such as mass, charge, velocity, acceleration, and so on. When we write a symbol such as $\bf v$ and say "it is the velocity" then on the one hand we are referring to a mathematical abstraction---a vector that lives in an abstract space of mathematical abstractions---and on the other hand we are referring to a physical quantity: the rate at which an object is increasing its displacement relative to other objects. In Newtonian physics you can get away with being a bit hazy on this distinction, but in quantum physics you cannot. A quantum operator such as $\hat{\bf p}$ is not "momentum", it is "the momentum operator" or "the operator representing momentum". It is a mathematical abstraction. The physical quantity here is the amount of "oomph" an object may have owing to its mass and motion. That is not an operator but a property of the physical world, one which can be detected by physical apparatus.

In General Relativity there are reasons to say that spacetime is purely an abstraction, placing it at the mathematical end of the distinction, and also reasons to say it is somewhat physical. It is somewhat physical because, after all, it has measurable properties such as curvature, and it can transmit energy and momentum from one place to another. But its physical nature is nevertheless subtle because you cannot tell whether you are moving relative to spacetime, nor even if you are accelerating relative to spacetime---those very phrases do not have any meaning, as it turns out; they amount to a misuse of terminology. And spacetime is not a thing in the sense of "made of stuff which has energy" because the energy we associate with spacetime (the energy which appears and disappears when gravitational radiation is emitted and absorbed) does not contribute to the stress-energy tensor in the Einstein field equation. This makes the role of spacetime unique among the sorts of phenomena we study in physics.

Another way to argue that spacetime is physical, not merely a mathematical tool, is that you can study many differentiable manifolds using pure maths, but only one of them will be able to give a precise description of physical goings-on as observed in the universe. What singles out this manifold from all the others? If you take the view that spacetime is purely a mathematical tool then it is hard to answer---logically, the special manifold would have to have something further about it that shows that it has this special role, but pure maths is unable to determine that special further property. We can avoid this puzzle by asserting that there is a physical "thing"---i.e. physical spacetime---and the special manifold is the one which correctly describes the nature of this physical "thing".

In view of all this, I for one feel that it is more helpful than not to say that spacetime is indeed a physical "thing", as long as one keeps in mind the various caveats which people who take the other view will also wish to emphasize.

Andrew Steane
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You can ask this question of most anything we study in physics. Regardless of what you are asking about you can usually get different answers from different physicists. The reason is that “real” is primarily a philosophical concept (in metaphysics) rather than a scientific concept. We don’t have a real-o-meter that we can use to quantity the reality of something.

Spacetime is indeed a mathematical construct (a pseudo-Riemannian manifold), but there is also a very clear mapping of that mathematical construct to experimental measurements of length, duration, angles, etc. Spacetime is a form of geometry, but all experiments indicate that it is the geometry of nature.

The mathematical construct of spacetime is isomorphic to experimental measurements of distance, direction, and duration, so it is typically not problematic to use the same term to refer to the mathematical construct and also to the physical measurements. But one place where it can become problematic is if one person is using it to refer only to the mathematical concept and another is using it to refer only to the physics and another is using both meanings interchangeably. I believe that is what has happened in the linked answer.

I don’t think it is necessary to take a stance on the reality of spacetime. Just be aware that the same word is used to refer to two separate but related concepts. If you ever come into a confusing conflict, it is likely just a discrepancy on which of the two related concepts are being discussed.

Dale
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  • I totally agree but the main purpose of this question was to get some elucidation as to what actually did those experiments detecting gravitational waves measured. If one cannot be 100% certain of the existence/reality/physicality of spacetime (or even just space) then what do we link the origin of detection to? It's becoming a little difficult to put things into words so I don't know if my point made it across. – self.grassmanian Dec 22 '20 at 23:52
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    @self.grassmanian the GW experiments measure very small dynamic changes in the distance between two points. The question about the reality of spacetime is rather separate from that. Regardless of the philosophical stance you take, GW measurements detect changes in distance. – Dale Dec 23 '20 at 00:09
  • exactly, but now the question arises...what is causing the changes in the distance? or why is the distance changing at all? – self.grassmanian Dec 23 '20 at 00:21
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    @self.grassmanian You are certainly asking an interesting question here, but again, not one that physics attempts to answer. Any question you might raise that boils down to "why is the universe this way" is entirely a question of meta-physics. – Charlie Dec 23 '20 at 00:39
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    @self.grassmanian that is a new question. I would recommend you post it separately. Comments are often deleted without warning and I would not want to put in the effort to answer that question only to have it deleted. – Dale Dec 23 '20 at 00:44
  • @Charlie This is where I will have to disagree. Just like a ball rolling down an incline is a question of physics in the sense that you try to answer the mechanism which describes it (which might as well be purely theoretical) and the reason it does so I think this question also pertains to physics. But I digress. It appears that at this point we cannot make any more advances in this sort of discussion. – self.grassmanian Dec 23 '20 at 00:45
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    @Dale Asked it here. Thanks for the tip about comment deletion. – self.grassmanian Dec 23 '20 at 00:53
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Something which must be understood if one wants to correctly interpret physics as a subject is the relationship between mathematical models and the real world. The entire purpose of physics is to make measurements in the real world, identify patterns, and then search for similar patterns that exist in mathematics. Once we have found said mathematical patterns we can then use these to make predictions about the real world.

It is a common mistake (and unfortunately one that is often propagated by popular science outlets) to believe that the mathematical structures that we use to make predictions about the real world really exist in the real world.

Classical electrodynamics for example models the electric and magnetic fields as vector fields, but this does not imply that there exist tiny arrows at every point in space that represent the electric and magnetic fields.

General relativity (GR) is another example (and probably the most frequent offender of this kind). Mathematically, GR is an applied theory of differential geometry, which involves (very loosely) studying the properties of surfaces. The four-dimensional surface used in GR is called spacetime, the curvature of this surface is used to make real-life predictions about the behaviour of gravity.

However, just as classical electrodynamics does not imply that tiny arrows exist at every point in space, GR does not imply that there is a real-life surface on which we live that curves in the presence of mass/energy. A more accurate way of putting this would be that physics does not predict what nature is, only how it works.

So rather than suggesting that the real world somehow "contains" mathematics, which implies that mathematics is special and has intrinsic meaning in nature, it is perhaps more accurate to simply note that we appear to live in a world that has immense, rigid structure and consistency, both of which are build-in features of mathematics.

Charlie
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  • I would say that as of yet GR is really a special case rather different than Classical Electrodynamics. For example, the experimental observation of Aharonov-Bohm Effect leads some solid credibility to thinking of EM fields are real physical objects. Of course, the arrow analogy is just a way to think but my main motivation here is to understand things from an experimental point of view. That's why the focus on detection of gravitational waves and here on the AB Effect. – self.grassmanian Dec 23 '20 at 00:14
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    @self.grassmanian Unfortunately, if what you're after is some objective elucidation of the nature of reality you will not find it in physics because this simply is not the purpose of the subject. Physics as a field is simply the acknowledgement that the patterns that exist in mathematics seem to sometimes exist in nature, which allows us to make real predictions about the world using completely abstract objects in maths. You can ask if spacetime is "real", but at this point you are leaving the realms of physics and entering those of philosophy and meta-physics. – Charlie Dec 23 '20 at 00:18
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(I can't comment because I don't have enough reputation, so I'm writing this here.)

Gravitational waves are a thing, we use GR to describe them, and it does by considering them waves propagating through spacetime itself.

You can interpret this, as well as other phenomena GR predicts (gravitational time dilation, gravitational lensing, the existence of black holes...) as proof that space and time form an entity that can only be described as something equivalent to spacetime, but spacetime will always be a mathematical model... will it not?

I mean, space and time seemed to be separate entities when Newtonian mechanics were proven to be able to describe with precision the dynamics of the big and the small, maybe we'll someday find a better model which does not describe spacetime as GR does, either because it adds more dimensions or because it links the ones in spacetime differently.

Pablo T.
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    I suppose one is not allowed to answer, when it should have been a comment, merely because you don't have enough reputation to comment. (You have mentioned that it should have been a comment, although I think otherwise. ) – Manish S Dec 23 '20 at 16:29
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You've already accepted an answer, so this is more a comment, but it is a really interesting question that philosophers and scientists have struggled with for centuries, if not millennia. And since you already have some good answers, I'll take a different approach.

All theories, even the best, are only models, which at best reproduce some of the shape of reality, if indeed there is such a thing. Not that I suggest there isn't a 'reality', it's just damn hard to actually prove. So, the honest answer to your question must be that we don't know if space-time (or General Relativity, or Quantum Mechanics) are real - but probably not; they are consistent with all experiments we've thrown at them, and it is reasonable to think that they are not too far from real, but they are not complete yet.

One can hope that category theory is general enough that it makes sense to think of 'Reality' as a category of some sort, and our theories as functors into whichever category we have chosen for our model. In that case we have techniques that allow us to make statements about Reality, by 'following the functor back to its origin' sort of thing.

j4nd3r53n
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Oh, you bet spacetime is real. Spacetime embeds (includes) the fields, and some of these fields are the electron field, quark field, EM field. These have excitations. Guess what these build up, atoms. These atoms build up you and me.

Are we real? Is the light real that makes you able to see this answer? I do believe that spacetime itself includes everything, all the fields that build up everything we know.

Sometimes we make the mistake as thinking about spacetime as the empty thing that hosts all other objects. But think about it, spacetime can expand (dark energy), stretch and squeeze(GWs), and even excite (particles). Just like you and me are excited about reading this answer.

However there is an energy associated with a spacetime geometry, and it seems reasonable to ask where this energy is coming from in an expanding universe. The answer is a bit surprising because energy is not conserved in an expanding universe so the energy doesn't have to come from anywhere, it can just appear.

How is Space-Time produced?

I do believe that all these different things are just manifestations of the same underlying phenomenon (energy), and we can call it spacetime.