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QFT describes the electron as an excitation of the electron field. The spin of electrons create magnetic fields. So which came first? How can a particle created from a field then create its own field? Or are some fields not fundamental?

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    Please clarify your specific problem or provide additional details to highlight exactly what you need. As it's currently written, it's hard to tell exactly what you're asking. – Michael Seifert Jun 15 '22 at 17:19
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    Related: https://physics.stackexchange.com/q/122570/226902 https://physics.stackexchange.com/q/695340/226902 https://physics.stackexchange.com/q/306586/226902 https://physics.stackexchange.com/q/118927/226902 – Quillo Jun 15 '22 at 18:17
  • I’ve hidden a number of comments. Please use comments to improve or clarify the question. To post a complete or partial answer, please post an answer. – rob Jun 16 '22 at 04:17

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Is the universe made up of particles or fields?

No one knows. Physics describes how the Universe behaves like, not what it actually is. To our best knowledge, the Universe behaves as if it were made of fields, not particles. This is particularly proeminent when doing QFT in a curved spacetime or in non-inertial frames of reference, which are situations in which phenomena such as the Unruh effect and the Hawking effect make it clear that, within quantum field theory, the notion of particles is observer-dependent. This is not an issue, since QFT is the quantum theory of fields, not of particles.

The spin of electrons create magnetic fields.

As I mentioned in the comments, this is incorrect. The electromagnetic field possesses degrees of freedom of its own and it is not fully determined by the sources. While we often say things such as "the electric field due to the charge $q$" or "the field created by the current $\mathbf{J}$" and etc, this is imprecise language. The sources merely interact with the electromagnetic field. While this is easily excused in static problems due to the fact that there is uniqueness of solutions upon requirement of vanishing fields at infinity, this does not generalize to Electrodynamics. For example, notice that a vanishing field and a generic electromagnetic wave are both perfectly valid solutions for the electromagnetic field in the absence of sources. Hence, the electromagnetic field is there regardless of the sources. A better statement for your phrase would be that the spin of the electron interacts with magnetic fields.

(Notice that I'm being sloppy on whether physical entities exist or not, since that is actually a problem in Philosophy)

So which came first?

Within the framework of quantum field theory, which is the best description we have of the Universe so far, the fields come first. The Unruh and Hawking effects are paradigmatic examples.

How can a particle created from a field then create its own field?

The particle does not create a field. In your spin example, you are actually describing the interaction between the electron field and the electromagnetic field. In certain limits, it is sufficiently precise to drop the quantum field theoretic details of the electron field and treat the system in terms of a particle interacting with an electromagnetic field. This is usually done in non-relativistic quantum mechanics. However, it is not a fundamental description of what is going on. Furthermore, notice that the quanta (i.e., the particle-like entities) associated with the electromagnetic field are not electrons, but photons.

Or are some fields not fundamental?

Not every field is fundamental, although, to the best of present-day knowledge, both the electron field and the electromagnetic field are fundamental. The proton field, for example, is not fundamental, in the sense protons are composite, being made of quarks and gluons.

At last, notice that while the concept of particle is not fundamental in QFT, it is often useful and makes calculations considerably easier. Similarly, even in classical theory the concept of a point-particle is troublesome (for example, one can't solve Maxwell's equations for a moving point-like charge while simultaneously considering the electromagnetic forces on the charge), but most definitely extremely useful.

If it interests you, I particularly suggest checking Sections 1.3 and 1.4 of R. Wald's Advanced Classical Electromagnetism, which are available for free in the publisher's preview. They discuss in general lines how one shouldn't view electromagnetic fields as being created by charged matter and how point-like sources are problematic even in Classical Electromagnetism. Sec. 3.3 of Wald's Quantum Field Theory in Curved Spacetime and Black Hole Thermodynamics presents a nice discussion of the particle interpretation of QFT and the later chapters of the book discuss in detail the Unruh and Hawking effects I mentioned earlier.

  • Note that neither Unruh radiation nor Hawking radiation are scientific concepts since they have not been observed in any physical experiment. They are currently just hypotheses. – flippiefanus Jun 16 '22 at 04:10
  • @flippiefanus While there is no direct observation of the Hawking effect in actual black holes, it must be remarked that there has been observation in analogue systems. As for the Unruh effect, as far as I understand there is experimental observation, and even if there wasn't, unless one is willing to question the validity of classical electrodynamics, there is a "virtual" observation. – Níckolas Alves Jun 16 '22 at 04:16
  • None of those analogues systems can serve as scientific observations of the actual thing because they cannot reproduce the fundamental aspects that are necessary. – flippiefanus Jun 16 '22 at 04:20
  • @flippiefanus Only the Hawking example was an analogue system. The papers on the Unruh effect discuss the actual Unruh effect, not an analogue system, and either relate experiments to detect it, propose experiments to detect and compute the result with standard classical Electrodynamics (which they call a "virtual observation"), or impose consistency of "usual" QFT to show how the Unruh effect is mandatory. I agree the Hawking case is not an observation of the actual thing, but the remaining ones are – Níckolas Alves Jun 16 '22 at 04:27
  • You have to agree that all this work on the Unruh effect still does not provide the necessary support for the effect according to the dictates of the scientific method. The problem is that the idea of these effect may be based on other concepts which are themselves non-scientific. And when these analyses are performed these non-scientific concept are inadvertently included again. Only the proper scientific process can prevent such misleading conclusions. – flippiefanus Jun 16 '22 at 04:37
  • @flippiefanus I mistakenly wrote "relate experiments" instead of "report experiments". One of the papers I linked discusses how "these aspects of acceleration-induced thermality [...] have been experimentally observed" (quote from the abstract). I do agree that there is still not much evidence and more experimental observation is needed to build confidence and consensus, but I find it a bit too conservative to treat these effects as if we were completely on the dark on whether they are real or not. – Níckolas Alves Jun 16 '22 at 04:58
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    To give an analogy a bit more astrophysical than I'm used to, to question these effects sounds to me like questioning whether Sgt A* was really a black hole before its pic was taken. Rigorously, of course it could be something completely different, but there was no reason to believe it – Níckolas Alves Jun 16 '22 at 05:00
  • Really nice answer. – Árpád Szendrei Jun 21 '22 at 03:24
  • Does string theory not predict the Unruh effect (since it's a particle theory which uses the worldsheet path integral instead of fields)? I'm wondering if existence / non-existence of Unruh effect will prove whether particles or fields are more fundamental. – Ryder Rude Aug 08 '22 at 06:38
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    @RyderRude I'm not an expert in String Theory, so I can't properly answer. Someone seems to have asked this in another post, so that could be a place to start. arXiv: 1901.08733 [gr-qc] argues "that the Unruh effect may be interpreted as a duality of a theory on different backgrounds." I also remember that once I heard of someone studying a second quantized version of ST to obtain the Unruh effect, but I don't really recall many details. In any case, that is one of the reasons I personally dislike Strings – Níckolas Alves Aug 08 '22 at 11:01
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QFT describes the electron as an excitation of the electron field.

Quantum field theory fields are completely different than the fields of Newtonian gravity and classical electrodynamics. It is a theoretical model that is very successful in fitting existing data and observation of elementary particles, the electron in your example, and is predictive of new data and observations at the microscopic world of elementary particles and neuclei..

The electric and magnetic and classical electromagnetic fields are part of the theory for macroscopic dimensions and fit the data for these large dimensions.

the spin of electrons create magnetic fields.

It can be shown mathematically that the classical theories emerge from the basic quantum mechanical theories. So the mathematics of the spin of the electrons leads at large dimensions to classical magnetic fields.

so which came first? how can a particle created from a field then create its own field?

It is in the mathematical model of QFT that an electron is created by an operator acting on a qft field. A model. It is the measurements and observations that are fitted by the model that leads to describing electrons as created by the operator on the field. The electrons exist in nature whether one models them or not.

or are some fields not fundamental?

In the hierarchy of models, first come the QFT fields, from which emerge the classical fields, so in that sense, if we call the QFT fields fundamental then the classical are derived. BUT this is the present theoretical model. It could be that in the future new theories would have the QFT model emerging from a more fundamental theory.

anna v
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    By attempting to associate magnetic fields with the electron rather than the photon, I think the OP has a more basic confusion. – Connor Behan Jun 15 '22 at 17:47
  • @ConnorBehan not really if taken as an example "the motion of an electric charge producing a magnetic field is an essential concept in understanding magnetism . The magnetic moment of an atom can be the result of the electron's spin, which is the electron orbital motion and a change in the orbital motion of the electrons caused by an applied magnetic field ." https://www.nde-ed.org/Physics/Magnetism/fieldcreation.xhtml – anna v Jun 15 '22 at 18:31