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Suppose I have a caliper that is infinitely precise. Also suppose that this caliper returns not a number, but rather whether the precise length is rational or irrational.

If I were to use this caliper to measure any small object, would the caliper ever return an irrational number, or would the true dimensions of physical objects be constrained to rational numbers?

Qmechanic
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  • Related: https://physics.stackexchange.com/q/38184/2451 The opposite question: https://physics.stackexchange.com/q/2010/2451 – Qmechanic Jan 27 '13 at 01:07
  • See http://www.physicsforums.com/archive/index.php/t-55579.html http://www.math.psu.edu/simpson/logic/seminar/021119.html – raindrop Jan 28 '13 at 02:29
  • Wouldn't it take an infinite amount of time to make the measurement? Ultimately quantum mechanics must surely imply that you can't make exact measurements? – jim Apr 06 '21 at 17:33
  • Unwind a string from around a unit cylinder and it is guaranteed to have an irrational length of $2 \pi$. – JAlex Apr 06 '21 at 19:02

13 Answers13

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The set of irrational numbers densely fills the number line. Even assuming that quantum mechanics doesn't disable the preimse of your question, the probability that you will randomly pick an irrational number out of a hat of all numbers is roughly $1 - \frac{1}{\infty} \approx 1$.

So the question should be "is it possible to have an object with rational length?

Zo the Relativist
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  • This is the appropriate question. – KDN Jan 27 '13 at 02:33
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    All of what you have said makes sense, but isn't $1-1/\infty$ = 1 because $1/\infty$ = 0? – Nick Anderegg Jan 27 '13 at 04:26
  • But wait, that doesn't actually make sense. There are an infinite number of rational numbers as well. The irrational number may be "densely" packed at whatever precision you choose, but at infinite precision, there would have to be an even distribution of both rational and irrational numbers. – Nick Anderegg Jan 27 '13 at 04:32
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    @NickAnderegg: yes, there are an infinity of rational numbers. But there is a bigger infinity of irrational numbers. Namely, the number of rational number is countably infinite, while the number of irrational numbers is uncountably infinite. – Zo the Relativist Jan 27 '13 at 10:45
  • So, there are infintely more irrational numbers than there are rational numbers. Constructions like Cantor sets make this manifest. – Zo the Relativist Jan 27 '13 at 10:47
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    Didn't you mean that the probability of randomly picking an irrational number is $1$? @NickAnderegg Even though the set of rational number is dense in $\mathbb{R}$, it's measure is zero. This means that if we take any set and remove all rational numbers from it, we cannot tell the difference by measuring it. – Petr Jan 27 '13 at 16:26
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    Yes, but these are mathematical arguments, we don't really have indivisible particles, but we do have particles with observables based on "probability waves", hmmm, so discrete numbers of particles, but the particle's measurable bits are probability distributions.... – daaxix Jan 28 '13 at 00:35
  • @Jerry Well, yeah, it is possible to have an object with rational length. You only need to adjust the infinitely accurate scale so that a given length becomes exactly rational. However, if you keep a fixed scale such that one length becomes rational, it should always be possible (to the point where it's trivial) to find a length that is irrational. – kram1032 Jan 28 '13 at 08:16
  • Every object's length is rational if you use its own length as the unit of measurement. 8-)} – Keith Thompson Jan 28 '13 at 08:32
  • @kram1032: sure, and to near-infinite precision, every other object will have non-rational length. – Zo the Relativist Jan 28 '13 at 20:24
  • This answer is based on an incorrect premise that question about possible results of measurements can be addressed by theory of measure. It is tempting to think this is so, even the names match : measurement,measure . However, this is only agreement in names; the substance is very different. The question is about possible results of physical measurements, the theory of measure is a part of mathematics. These are quite different things. As Keith Thompson says, mathematically the same physical length can be both rational or irrational; it depends on the meter used. – Ján Lalinský Mar 03 '15 at 21:26
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    Most direct measurements, however, have finite numerical precision, so the raw numbers obtained from the measurement process are always rational numbers. – Ján Lalinský Mar 03 '15 at 21:30
  • @JánLalinský: sure, but the actual result will be a sum by quadrature of several such measurments, which will still be an irrational number. – Zo the Relativist Mar 03 '15 at 23:28
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    What do you mean by "sum by quadrature"? And "actual result"? Isn't the result of a measurement an actual result? – Ján Lalinský Mar 04 '15 at 02:12
  • But the rationals are dense in $\Bbb{R}$ with the standard topology. – user193319 Jan 14 '19 at 00:13
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Is it possible for a physical object to have an irrational length?

It's a bit of a philosophical question, but one could say this:

Just for fun, assume you have a perfect 45-degree right triangular piece of metal whose base and height is rational. Then it's hypotenuse is irrational because its length is the base times $\sqrt{2}$.

So it is possible to have a physical object of irrational length IF you can have a physical object of rational length.

ADDED: Suppose you cut a 45-degree right triangle out of a material based on a square atomic lattice, so the base and height each consist of $N$ atoms separated by $d$. Then the hypotenuse consists of $N$ atoms separated by $\sqrt{2}\times d$, so it's still not rational.

Suppose instead the material is based on a hexagonal lattice. Then all inter-atomic spacing would be $d$, but it would be impossible to cut a perfect 45-degree triangle out of it. In fact, the only triangle with rational sides you could cut out of it would be equilateral.

Mike Dunlavey
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    This seems to be where my whole premise falls apart and I'm not able to communicate my thinking clearly. Basically, what I'm asking is it possible for that hypotenuse to exist. Perhaps the base and height cannot both be equal because then the hypotenuse would be irrational. But otherwise, this make sense. – Nick Anderegg Jan 27 '13 at 04:30
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    you also need to be able to assume you can have an object which has a perfect right angle. – RoundTower Jan 27 '13 at 14:48
  • @RoundTower: you have to exactly fine-tun in order to have a triangle with all three sides rational. Almost every triangle will have at least one irrational side. – Zo the Relativist Sep 10 '13 at 03:40
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    @JerrySchirmer: Your last sentence sums up my experience with the fairer sex as well. – dotancohen Jul 24 '14 at 10:48
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    @RoundTower alternatively, you could accept that a perfect right angle is possible, but instead argue that you can't achieve a perfectly triangular piece of metal. – Dan Henderson Aug 23 '16 at 17:07
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    @Mike Dunlavey What if I had an ant. And if I kindly requested the ant to walk over the hypotenuse, then before completing her journey, where would she put her last step. – Parth Maske Oct 16 '16 at 19:27
  • @Mike Dunlavey excuse me for bumping an old answer, but isn't this thought experiment assuming the conclusion already? with 45 degrees being pi/4 radians and all .. – nil-uuid Jul 24 '22 at 20:57
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Suppose your infinitely precise caliper gives the answer $2.00000000000000\dots$ How would you know whether this is $2$ exactly, or if somewhere past the trillionth decimal it starts to deviate from $2$? How would you read your infinitely precise caliper?

  • Well, that's just cheating the question. These are clearly not any sort of calipers in existence. I've modified the question to accommodate this response. – Nick Anderegg Jan 27 '13 at 00:09
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    You're still assuming, without justification, that there is such a thing as a "precise length" of a physical object. –  Jan 27 '13 at 00:13
  • But matter is quantized: atoms/quarks/...strings? Even strings are quantized. If everything is quantized we don't have infinite precision or infinite decimal places. – raindrop Jan 28 '13 at 02:21
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    Raindrops comment closes and gives the answer to the question. Every possible length is an integer multiple of a qanta. – N.S.JOHN Jan 02 '16 at 07:54
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physical objects do not have well-defined lengths (there is this thing called quantum mechanics conceived in its entirety upon this concept). A more interesting question is if dimensionless numbers in physics can be irrational, for instance, the ratio between the mass of the electron and the proton.

Theoretically, we will need a numerical expansion and some limiting argument to tell to what domain of the reals the limit belongs (irrational, transcendental, rational). Experimentally this can never be asserted, as naturally all experimental numbers are known with a finite number of digits of precision

lurscher
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One can give an argument based on measure theory and the like, but one must not forget that physics is about measurement. The question whether the length can be rational or irrational would need an infinitely precise measurement, which is not possible (measurements bear an error). Hence this question cannot be answered from the physics viewpoint. Any answer will be just speculation.

c.p.
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If we assume that the universe is continuous, and say fix everything at a certain time frame. Then everything has an irrational length, regardless to how well we can measure it. Simply because we can define a unit of measure whose result would be irrational.

For example, measure my foot. Now define the unit of measure $1\ \small\bf Karf$ to be the square root of twice the length. Then my foot would be exactly $\sqrt\frac12\ \small\bf Karf$ long. As we know $\sqrt\frac12$ is irrational.

But this requires the assumption that the universe is continuous and that we can freeze time and measure with infinite precision. If the universe is discrete, or if we cannot measure accurately, then we can't really say too much. Not to mention that everything changes all the time (cells falling off, atoms released, etc. etc.) so there's no constant length to anything large enough.

  • I think, comming up with a scale like that isn't what the question asks for: Take the right Isosceles triangle in the example. It assumes that you meassure the side-lengths with length 1 and thus, the hypothenuse has to be $/sqrt{2}$. The question essentially is: Given you use an infinitely accurate scale in which one of the sides comes out rational, would, on a physical level, all sides be rational (two of them of miniscully different length) or could two of them possibly be exactly the same, making the third side irrational? (or the third side could be rational and the other two irrational.) – kram1032 Jan 27 '13 at 23:32
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Let's take the smallest possible case of such a triangle. It would be made of three atoms of equal size, linked together in a L-shape with a 90° angle in between.

three hypothetical atoms

If you have an arrangement like that, and something similar might be chemically possible, the centers of mass of the more distant two atoms would be apart [exactly][1] $\sqrt{2}\times$the distance between the directly touching ones.

Presumably, if you take a more rigorous and accurate approach, if you look at the bonding structure of water (which, of course, won't feature a right angle but the situation is equivalent), the centers of mass of the two Hydrogen atoms would also be an irrational distance appart compared the the distances of the centers of mass of each Hydrogen to the Oxygen. No matter what scale you use, at least one of the two distances will always be irrational.

If you can somehow limit the set of all possible distances to a countable infinity, I'd suspect this set not to be the rationals but rather the algebraic numbers. (or at least the subset of them that are positive)

[1]: modulo Heisenberg but I didn't use proper orbitals either. Let's, for the sake of the argument, define a distance on quantum level by the distances of expected values of the corresponding probability clouds.

kram1032
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  • Nice picture, how was it produced? – Ján Lalinský Mar 03 '15 at 21:34
  • hah thanks, it was a simple render in Blender Cycles. (Look it up if you don't know it. It's neat.) Three refractive bluish spheres, one lightsource in the middle above them in the same location as the camera, if I recall correctly. It's been a while though. - Not exactly related to the question but I felt like being a bit fancy :) – kram1032 Mar 04 '15 at 10:20
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I think that because you have measurements that are real numbers not isomorphic to the natural numbers or countably infinite, you firstly have assumed the universe infinitely dense. Therefore any measurement as mentioned in some other answer's would justly be required to have infinite many decimal points.

This is seen from the fact that the set of real numbers can be viewed as a set of infinite sequences of integers. Because measurements are positive, any measurement can be represented in the form $r = \sum_{i=0}^{\infty}\frac{a_i}{10^i}$ such that $a_0 \in \Bbb N$ and for $ i>0; a_i \le 9$. Then $r$ is defined as the limit as $i$ to $\infty$.

So in short you can see the irrational measurements just correspond to specific types of sequences above where they do not repeat.

Rather then going further in defining the integer sequences, I would like to consider other notions as well. The possible measurements are not countable!

Keep in mind that though traditionally the mathematics used in physics are defined over the reals or complex, they typically correspond to sets isomorphic to the integers or that are countable in actual calculation.

It seems that mathematics considers the realm of possibility (where some reals aren't even definable), I do not know if it corresponds to the constituents of the universe.

marshal craft
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  • To consider that somehow the universe is continuous, even then there are paradox almost as if it couldn't be. Considering non-enumerable sets, how would the hypothetical universe ever "know" what to do? – marshal craft Jan 02 '16 at 07:14
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If you are talking about real, physical objects, then your question collapses completely, because such objects are composed of particles which have no definite positions and momenta according to Heisenberg's uncertainty principle.

So lets stick to a stick in classical mechanics, then your caliper can return irrational numbers.

But a mathematical line-segment doesnt even have to have rational or irrational length, it could have an even 'finer' scale, a so called non-standard number.

fisk
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From the point of view of measure theory, the probability of measuring a rational length is actually zero.

Consider, without loss of generality, the interval $[0,1]$. Using the standard Lebesgue measure, the measure of this set (its length) is 1. If we consider the subset which consists of all the rational numbers from this set, its measure is actually 0. This starts to make sense if one considers how miniscule the size of the rational numbers is compared with all the other real numbers. In fact, it turns out that the only subsets of our interval with non-zero measure are continuous ones (eg $[a, b]$, where $a<b$ and the measure is $b-a$) and ones that contain so-called normal numbers. Only the normal numbers are said to 'take up any space' on the real number line. That is, virtually all the real numbers are actually normal numbers (which can never be written down on paper), and so the probability of measuring anything that's not a normal number is 0.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_number

Ethan
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The hypotenuse of a right angled triangle with legs 1 is irrational.


Alternatively, consider a pyramid. As you take measurements of the 'base length' towards the apex, you get a continuous sets of values. One of these must be irrational.

Of course, you can then start an argument about what 'physical' object is, and if length is truly continuous, or it has to be discrete because it is constructed by atoms.

  • Well, but then you have to find a right angled triangle, and you have to have the legs equal exactly $1$ of something rational... –  Jan 27 '13 at 00:09
  • A theoretic triangle is not a physical object. – Nick Anderegg Jan 27 '13 at 00:10
  • @NickAnderegg How about your set square? –  Jan 27 '13 at 00:10
  • The question is asking more about precision. It's more along the lines of "Can I have a physical triangle with a hypotenuse of $\sqrt[]{2}$. Perhaps it wouldn't be possible to construct a triangle with legs that are exactly 1 unit. Perhaps one leg is so slightly shorter in a way as to allow a hypotenuse near $\sqrt[]{2}$. – Nick Anderegg Jan 27 '13 at 00:14
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First of all, it doesn't make sense to assign an absolute number to a physical quantity like length and volume. The number can be different with respect to different "units" of measurement.

But one can still question the ratio of two lengths, in this case:

According to the Bekenstein entropy limit(information), I guess there should be some maximum level of precision.

If a rod has an irrational length ratio, then it demands an infinite amount of information(write the length in a binary format like this sequence 11010100001000....).

Since irrational numbers don't have any pattern( repetition of a finite sequence) I guess it should be impossible to retain all that information in a Quantum Mechanical world.

Moreover one can be even more critical and accept the existence of length ratios only with a finite code(rather than a finite repetitive pattern)! so that one can deny even a rod with a non-integer rational number length ratio.

This sounds like the emergence of integers(quantas) in Quantum Mechanics!

Bastam Tajik
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It's expected from general results in Loop Quantum Gravity, a leading contender for Quantum Gravity, that there is a minimal length that is resolvable which is of the order of Planck's length.

Since irrationals must have infinite precision, this means we should rule out objects with irrational length. In fact, we must also rule out objects with rational length, since in order to verify that they have rational length we require infinite precision.

It turns out that the continuum structure of physical geometry is quite a bit more interesting than the real line ...

Mozibur Ullah
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